BROWSE NOW
100% free online dating, friendship, activity partners, chat, groups, social networking, parties, tagging, fun, matchmaking, free personals, forums and more!
If he missed it his punishment should be to practice up until he has better aim!
I completely disagree. For shooting at the Koran, the soldier should be punished rather harshly.
It is completely inappropriate that he should point his weapon, expend rounds on something like that.
It should have taken only one grenade.
How would all upstanding redneck christians feel if an Arab soldier shot the bible on TV? This guy was INCREDIBLY stupid and should be punished for that alone. I mean, Hearts and Minds? Geeez. Ok, Hearts and Minds are not part of the Geneva convention and warfare isn't civilized, I know.
Yawn.
Continue.
I do agree it was just plain STUPIDITY on the part of the sniper to do such a thing in such a volatile situation.......but, what pisses me off the most is that he will be punished for "political reasons" and nothing to do with his actions. AND the fact that the US Military about pissed on themselves and broke their backs asking for forgiveness......**** that. As a country, we don't really have to apologize for the actions of a few. A simple, I'm sorry this happened, we're taking care of it would suffice.......kissing ass is just as stupid as the original act........
Oh - if I was a prisoner, and I could use that as a mind game against my captors? Oh, I am sure I would portray that as the worst thing you could do to me. Please, anything but shoot my bible, it is most holy to me. If it happened to get me any amount of leverage on my captors, or say...the media which laps this stuff up like a barn cat with milk - Sure, why not?
Only those of weak & feeble faith in their beliefs worry about desecration of earthly material objects.
You're walking down the street and you encounter someone shooting at a bible or a copy of the koran in their yard, what are you gonna do? (Nothing, it's legal.)
Then you walk along a little further and someone is burning a cross in their yard, what are you gonna do? (Nothing, it's legal.)
Shooting at books for target practice and burning pieces of wood are harmless events. It is only when you give the books and wood more value that it really has that an illogical problem develops.
Only crazy, insane, death-loving jihad-joe Islamic types get riled up over it.
Several European countries, most specifically Holland and Denmark, are experiencing HUGE internal problems of violence and religious intolerance, because these countries showed 'respect' toward Islamic immigrants and their (barbaric) beliefs. Now there is a large population of Islamic people (and jihadists) completely OUT OF CONTROL with 'honor killings', stonings for offenses such as 'Koran desecration', and death threats toward those who might depict an illustration of Muhammed. Completely out of control and beyond what the formerly peaceful nations' governments can handle.
My own opinion is that Korans should be openly burned, and characterizations of Muhammed made known, so that these Islamic people realize that their barbaric death-inciting ways will NOT be tolerated.
No right or wrong answers, wee all just have opinions and suggestions.
You have a point there. The respect seems decidedly one sided. Now thinking tactically: Giving the village a new Koran may just prevent a few new jihadists from arising among the population, but ultimately we will never know. These things are not measurable. Remember though that like an election a hearts and minds campaign does not aim to persuade the hard core on either side, you want the undecided middle that you hopefully CAN influence. I don't think anyone though will deny the chances in that social climate are slim to non existent.
Removing the soldier from Iraq may just prevent him from being made an example of in a very nasty fashion, publicly, on TV and on the Web. His life is not worth much right now in Iraq. You do damage control in many ways and on many levels. Which is what the Pentagon is doing, and doing well in this case.
But ultimately, no right or wrong answers. Except the observation the western civilization is involved in a religious war which may take decades to play out. Interesting times. What interests me more is how much I will pay for petrol in a year's time to satisfy the speculators in oil. I live a bit out of town. Hour's walk at least. Cannot hurt me though.
Second - I want the general populace in the area to be firmly convinced that me and my teams are the baddest, bloodiest, ruthless m.f. that they will ever run across. I wanted them to know - if they screwed with me, I would lay their corpse bare-feet first towards Mecca, ass in the air, and a juicy fat piece of pork down their throats and piss on them.
The part you miss - and I have said this more than once - is *some* of the folks there only understand "negotiations" and "peace" AFTER they comprehend "utter destruction" Been that way since the times of the Golden Horde and Saladin, and likely well before.
The other thing - is *some* of these folks understand there are flaming idiots here in the U.S. that will latch onto the most pathetic thing - ie, They shot my Koran - turn it into a major incident (sorry - it is not. It is a pimple on an ant's a$$) which -and get this- **further's their own goals*** !!!
And really - I am almost to the point of putting up a website dedicated to caricatures of Mo'hammed. But gets me thinking - perhaps add some interesting video clips of various ways to destroy a Koran. The 'rednecks' would probably just enjoy that, and I can see various large caliber rifles and suitable applications of high explosives.
I do agree it was just plain STUPIDITY on the part of the sniper to do such a thing in such a volatile situation"
We are in the middle of a war that has turned into a chess game. This is not about Rambo's now. The Rambo concept in Iraq seems to have been abandoned for lack of results. The Koran is both a religious/cultural identity for all Muslims. It is the emotional center for many of these people, just as the Torah is for the Jews and the Bible is for the "moral majority" and extreme evangelists. The problem is that both Americans and many Muslims have a lack of consideration for the other's culture and both want to enforce their beliefs upon the other.
Some of you think it's alright to insult their religious beliefs and they think it's alright to kill you for it. In my opinion both are a form of tunnel vision in their own right. Yet it is interesting that even the terrorists, have not (to my knowledge) publicly defaced a Bible or an image of the crucifixion of Christ. Even Osama bin Laden has openly acknowledged that the Chirst was a holy man and view Him as a "prophet".
A comparisson:
I'm sure that most here could care less if someone burns our flag in their country. But (esp. after 9/11.) have them come here and do it and I think that most people in America would be in an uproar. I know that I would want those people thrown out of here. And I know that a number of American's would want them killed...Both Emotional responses. These people's nation is Islam. They don't look at each other as Jordanians or Iraqi's as much as they look at each other as either Sunni or Shite.
Shooting a Koran, esp. in the Arab country where we're seen as invaders that took over that sovereign nation was idiotic. That was not something that was just going to play in Iraq. That act is also going to play in Afghanistan, where we are working hard to win the hearts and minds of the people. That idiot's actions could set those gains back.
The military did the right thing. They played to the cultural sensibilities of the region. Better to be show some contrite humility (as well we should) than have our people die over it.
Tell you what...take your bible out back and get your firearm , point it at what you believe to be Gods word and blow a hole it...could you , as a Christian?
Please feel free to post a picture after you shoot up your bible, not to mention scrawling expletives that were also part of it, which I havent been able to find......I'm curious to see who would do that?
Having said that, yes it was politically charged besides just one mans actions...
I have no love lost for Islamic extremist, however..in case anyone is not counting....fewer and fewer of our people are dying becasue the Sunni Tribals, have helped. How is that
I wonder if anyone viewed C-spans panel last week with Gen Peter Pace and Gen Mc Caffrey. After watching and listening to them, I had a whole new angle on the war. Its complex and it tenuous at best. Its online if anyone is curious to search for it.
In China they built the Shanghai World Financial Center. To keep the thing from swaying in the wind(far beyond acceptable ranges) and because in that part of the world gets some wicked storms, they had to design a hole in the top.
Firstly, the design company was Japanese and that didn't go over real well to begin with because of Japans invasion of China...
Then architects designed a "circular hole" to allow for air flow and to keep the swaying within acceptable norms...well all hell broke loose because they saw it as a symbol of the Japanese Rising Sun.
To a designer, it was trivial...to a builder like myself or you , its just a hole but politically it had to be changed. It offended the Chinese, so they came up with an upside down Trapezoid.
A photo of the Shanghai Tower
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcohk/2359908521/
Ok, its off topic but it does make a point.
well........ at least according to those who PAY to have these people "do it" and to those who "do it"
I guess, according to the radicals, it's ok to destroy ANYTHING (including the Koran) as long as you utter the phrase "Allah hua akbar" (God is Great) while you do it
It was only then they began to realize the reason everyone carried a copy of the koran (each copy with some pages 'missing').
...Sorry I would give props to whoever said the latter above, but can't recall who it was!! Cimm I think!
Point is--Snipers go through rigorous training and this man was a Staff Sgt. So, he disgraced a particular part of the military that is very sensitive.
Robbie: "I own my own bibles and have a good supply of them."
Me also...lol....I sometimes wonder where they all came from. I'd give one to someone if they asked but I can never dispose of anyone of them ....Just because
Honestly, I dont see it as Ass kissing at all how we handled it.
The US Military, in my opinion did the right thing...each soldier no matter what rank represents us. Theres no shame in restitution and in this case a highly visible and HUMBLE one was the right thing...
Again...just one Christians view.
After all - she somehow 'attracted' the rapist with her female allure.
(We need to accept this treatment... it would be just plain disrespectful to argue with their beliefs.)
Uh... yeah, right.
The really weird thing about Islam from reading about Muhammad's life is that he was a nobody....his wife had all the money and he rode her coat tails...when she died he didnt get what he thought he had coming and retreated to a cave...where God revealed himself...
Hence a new god is created.
As an aside, some court here in the US sided with a rapist in a case against a rape victim. The Muslim world isnt the only place that has problems with treating women with respect.
My philosophy exactly....esp in Camden, NJ.
I get a kick out of these suicidial maniacs like Atta would left instructions for the care of his body, how it would be consecrated or wha' eva....
There's a person with an engineering degree who thinks like that? Probably a MENSA too
On the flipside...we can be best of friends...Its always up to what the other person wants. I take my cues from them.
Okay gotta run...."Hang em High" is on AMC.
We start by showing respect in their views toward the koran (a book), and showing tolerance/respect for their beliefs... and then just as it has happened already in Holland & Denmark - soon we're expected to respect even their beliefs we don't respect at all.
My opinion on the matter - don't respect ridiculous, dangerous beliefs at all, ever. Don't even start. There is NEVER a time to punish ANYONE for destroying a book. No book, no where, NEVER.
Destroying a book is a totally inconsequential activity. Let's not allow others to make it into something it is NOT.
Just because I have different views, beliefs and religion that doesn't make mine right!!! I do not ever condone the actions of those perpetrators (the rape u were referring too) a life cannot be compared to the value of paper!!
Further I don't condone shooting another's bible...holy book just because I don't have the same faith in it that other's might!!
It's 4am and I am confusing myself.... I'll come back to this!
I just post & read from an interest perspective.
My views on the Iraq war are changing. The Iraqi people don't seem to want to help themselves.
They want us to help them in accordance with their guidelines.
I say if we send one soldier home for 'desecrating the koran' we should send all of the soldiers home for the act of the one.
Let the Iraqi people decide. That soldier sent home was there to save Iraqi lives. The 'crime' (or lack of a crime) does not fit the punishment. If the Iraqi's want the U.S. there to save their asses then they need to bend a little and accept that everything isn't going to go their way.
(If I held up a copy of the koran in front of me, any Islamic jihad terrorist would shoot right through it to kill me.)
That we don't appear to want to help ourselves etc bullshit bullshit bullshit...
Anyways jes saying...
Lets say if someone burnt the Aboriginal flag (I prefer the Aboriginal flag rather than the Australian) hell no would I trust him and I can guarantee there would be an uproar regardless if he was there to save my life or not!!! Go Jump on your head would be my response!
So do the appropriate thing and get rid of him before that happens!
If someone were here to risk their life, to save my life, I would make most any material concessions necessary. Burn flags, burn bibles, burn crosses... do whatever harmless acts entertain you, I'll allow it as my way of saying thanks for putting your life on the line for me.
Once again - we all have our views and opinions. I was willing to die for my country when I was in the military. But I wasn't willing to die for the sake of a flag, a book, or a wooden object.
Huge Kudos go to all those Soldiers who have used the good common sense they were given. Also to those Iraqis who with held their own anger.
****do whatever harmless acts entertain you**** Apparently not everyone sees shooting up ones religious literature as Harmless.
Should we use the Guttenburg Bible for target practice also, just to show the Iraqis that books are just books?
I dont like being at odds with your loyalty for military servicemen TCK. Thats admirable, but there is a huge distinction.
Personally speaking, taken out of theater and maybe a break in rank is about all this guy should suffer....those calling for a dishonorable discharge or whatever else seems a bit much.
Youve served....are these axioms true?
"You must protect and save the lives of your comrades by effectively removing danger and not embark on your own crusades."
"Be courageous without being impulsive determined without obstinacy and open among closed minds"
"Never underestimate your enemy or judge him by previous actions he may have improved. Out-think your enemy and you will also out-live him."
They came from an online Snipers Creed. I dont like Cherry Picking, so if you want the site, here it is.
Since I was never in the military I am not claiming they are in fact a snipers creed but they do make sense
http://www.xs4all.nl/santenws/various.htm
How can you say "If someone were here to risk their life, to save my life, I would make most any material concessions necessary. Burn flags, burn bibles, burn crosses... do whatever harmless acts entertain you, I'll allow it as my way of saying thanks for putting your life on the line for me." this when his actions obviously show such disdain for them at the same time... how would that prove to those people that he has their best interests at heart???
...And.... That's his way of treating the innocent people he is supposed to be protecting?? What if his actions brought conflict by...I don't know... militants to what may have been previously a peaceful area?!? What if his actions, cost the lives of his comrades and other innocent people... alot of what if's!
I still think it was wrong and disrespectful...
I hope any U.S. serviceman who shows disrespect toward the koran is sent home immediately. And I hope a lot of them are sent home .
It is about time our brave U.S. men & women be allowed make up their own minds as to if they want to risk their lives saving an ungrateful Iraqi population more interested in protecting the 'virtue' of the koran than their own lives.
Fools throughout history have died for 'principle' when no harm actually existed. This type of incident will simply become another chapter of history to be read about in schools.
My views on the Iraq war change a bit more each day. Sadly, I'm anticipating the widespread slaughter of Iraqi men, women, and children, at the hands of radical Islamic jihaists, when the U.S. military finally says "enough, we're gone".
But... the koran will suffer no further 'disrespect' if the U.S. soldiers are gone.
"Ahhh... indeed, I see your wisdom... although we will each die horrible & slow deaths at the hands of our own countrymen, the koran will not suffer further disrespect. Therefore I should encourage you to leave, and then watch as my family is slain."
Yes, we understand the message so we will honor your request and leave you now.
So the folks over there are highly outraged that someone did something "obscene" to a Koran.
HHHHmmm...wonder if they have designated places in each home, or, as you see many bibles - just on a shelf somewhere, or tucked away in a drawer. Seems to me, if it was that damn important anyway - why was it laying about for a sniper to have some target practice ???
Its no secret here how much I hate that person and what I personally would do to him myself and enjoy it despite my own Christian values.
Exstasi, I didnt mistake you for calling for a dishonorable anything, that was just rhetoric we're hearing over here on the news or did hear. Jusr foe some clarity
I agree with removing him from the theatre and getting him somewhere else.....that's not a big punishment for him, but good for all. Then a simple apology to the leadership we are trying to help but, after that.....it's all bullshit.
I too agree that this act was stupid given the circumstances and disrespectful towards all believers in that faith. But to teach a person to kill men, women and children if need be, then go bonkers over a book, any book is just absurd.
War is hell people and whatever it is we're doing over there, our military is still in a war. If I told some of you a few of the things my son had to do over there in his three tours, you'd probably jump up and hate him also........it was worse than shooting a book......War is Hell.......
My Ass Isn't White....It's actually more like a caramel colour!! And I still Stand By My View...how am I calling for punishment by saying he should be removed from that area??? I simply recall stating and I quote, "Let me just clarify, I am not saying he should be dishonourably discharged at all... I am saying he should be removed from where he is stationed now!!" that would be for his safety and for his peers.... So before you get on your high horse there Miss and start with the name calling because someone has a different opinion than you I suggest you read correctly first!!! Go take an Aspirin and have your Nanna nap!!!
You're forgetting that not everyone over there is a terrorist... there are some people that are actually innocent... and in need of protecting... Just because you're there to ensure my safety that does NOT give anyone the right to disrespect something that I obviously hold in such high regard!!!
Since when are bibles used as target practise for a trained sniper? I'm sure that sniper would not deliberately go out of his way to aim and fire at an innocent bystander, he knew what he was doing, he had to have known the implications as a professional & an adult... If he didn't, that's even scarier!
I agree war is hell... and people will get hurt, but that was done to be spiteful....either that or he needs to go back and do more target practise!
TCK, save the sarcasm!!
It is my sincere hope that more U.S. soldiers commit physically harmless acts of disrespect toward the koran, and are 'sent home'.
(As for my example scenario above - when one U.S. soldier leaves Iraq that is one less U.S. soldier to protect an Iraqi person's life.)
Hopefully all of the U.S. servicemen will be home soon.
You know as much about war as I do... I have family serving over there too and lost family in previous wars, my Father served, Uncles, Grandfather who served and was commissioned Captain who I might add died with a bullet still in his knee from WWII!!
Don't get yourself twisted sweetheart, you aren't the only one who has loved, lost and suffered... So have Iraqi and Australian people!
I didn't see what you wrote about your son and him returning injured, He has my sympathy...
You took this to a whole new level...somewhere it didn't need to go!
I'm still entitled an opinion without the insults, especially being called a whore...I'd love to just unleash a barrage of insults too... but it's my Birthday today and I like to think I've matured and can hold a civil debate on differing opinions without resulting to trailor trash talk!!
Now.....with all that said, I normally don't get involved in others affairs and I apologize for trying to play moderator or interferring with ya'll's discussion, but that last slam "jane fonda,iraqi whore............" was way way over the line and uncalled for. I don't know where it came from and it sure as hell is not the picture of Extasi........So Ms Emily, lets direct your anger and hatred to something that can do good and leave the innocents out of it.....
oh yeah...hunter.....i **** myself a lot........what's your point?
Ms Emily...you know usually, Im sympathetic with a mother of a soldier and you have my sympathies and get wells. Youre right, at least he is still with you. Im glad to see you did the right thing and apologize. Whats his prognosis?
Pschologists will determine that when he gets stateside, I suppose. I still contend it was a obne head move however, no one knows what pushed him or edged him to do it. Its not like he cut someones head off just for the fun of it.
Until someone walks in anothers shoes or reads the offical reports all ya can say really is that the act was foolish. Motives are unknown.
Again, alot of Kudos go out to Gen Patreus progress and the Iraqis who managed their own anger. Had this been 18 ago I'm sure we'd have seen alot more reaction. So at least someone is growing up.
I think that what you wrote is very important reading and exposes the foolishness in the hubris of some of the other posts in this forum.
I agree....wit the above, Crane, its good to hear from a solier in uniform on this.
I wonder whats become of Big John. I hope he is well. Its not like him to pass on a subject like this but he has been absent for some time.
I saw the Pictures of This Koran. The Book was shot to hell. What does a Sniper rifles hold 8-10 rounds...? I thought I saw more than that in this book.
Questions might be asked of him ligitmately....what did you think about after you fired the first round? The Second and so forth....because with each one comes more culpability a chance to stand down from the action too.
So...Emily what isd you sons prognosis?
Oh, by the way I been meaning to ask...did he feel the book itself was a threat to his life?? lol...according to the rules of engagement if shooting that book was the last resort, well...I'm just trying to figure out if the book had an AK-47 or remote for an IED..maybe he shot the book because of that? hahahaha...just a little militant humor...lol
While I might personally agree with some of the comments made with how absurd it sounds to punish someone for shooting at a book, I will again reiterate the point I was making the past couple of posts ago....
We are trained professionals...we are professional killers first as Soldiers, and we are also professional representatives of the United States Government. While shooting at a Koran may seem insignificant to punish the person doing it, the view it gives the world would be the same as if a man, who doesn't necessarily have to be racist or discriminative, drives a truck with a rebel flag for a license plate and a noose dangling down from his rear-view mirror. The impression it gives the world is not a good one...any one with intellegence understands the impact that could have, as well as the outcomes...as for the Soldier, he is supposed to act in a trained, professional manner, and sniper or not, he chose not to do that...so the Army in all of it's glory has put rules in regulations in place for him to conduct himself like a professional...as well as punishments when Soldier's violate that protocol...so yeah, he should be punished, and just like my superiors before me have effectively stated, his punishment should be just as symbolic of his infractions of professionalism. If you break the rules, you get disciplined...if you talked in class when you weren't supposed to, you got in trouble. If you cut in line and got caught, you were forced to go to the back of the line...it's the same damn principle when it comes to Soldiers, despite the personal feelings of others, because it's not about the personal feelings...it's about how that Soldier was trained to perform, and this sniper didn't do that in the best interest of professionalism.
And for the record, this is EXACTLY why I no longer enjoy being a Soldier...everything's gone too damn political...but hey, I have a future to secure with a new family, and I don't see any handouts coming, right? LMAO
- conduct unbecoming of a soldier in a foreign nation
- improper use of a weapon
- improperly discharging a weapon
and those are just the "crystal clear" ones
thats why i could not rejoin the army crane, when i was in in 89 it wasnt political. way to many rules and regulations now.
(which, by the way, was the forum thread topic question)
^5 Cimm and Cristo..how you fellas been?
hugs/kotc ms.emily...still luv ya though!!
I'm doing good, thank you!
It's good to see you still around and hear a bit about what you're up to!
And I'm enjoying reading your straight ahead posts. Your perspective is enlightening. It is a reminder of the professionalism that a lot of the members of the military conduct themselves with.
It used to be that countries went out and fought wars. Winning hearts and minds was not (usually) a concern or part of the job description. But certainly, since Viet Nam, that has changed.
There is a lot of emotion here. And I think that you pretty much addressed this issue from a military and logical viewpoint. And lets face it, you're getting paid to do what you do. This is business. And successful businessman adapt to the situation at hand and conduct themselves accordingly. And if their paid employees can't act with integrity and therefore misrepresent the company, they must be fired. Or that company will go out of business.
"Tareq al-Hashemi, Iraq's vice president, has demanded tough government action against a United States soldier who used the Quran, the Muslim holy book, for target practice.
The incident was also strongly condemned by the Association of Muslim Scholars, which represents many of Iraq's mosques....
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D4FB39B2-937C-468F-B2FD-8ECB5F0A9956.htm.
In any american prozecutution a defendants mindset is question as to what he thought about between one action to another, he he aahes could claim stress strss and what ever esle that is bthrting him.
REGARDLESS, of his indiscrection a koran is not a person. His actions didnt tear any lives apart, didnt leave any orpharns behind and so, I hope that all considerarions can be given to him as is posible without lookig like like unifom SS check gone haywire. Patiece over there are pulled and stretched, trying to the lengths of their endurance.
JMO
BTW...dam good shot that American
As for the most recent post...ugghhh.... Respect works both ways!! Like Crane said up there, if it was the American flag or holy bible that was shot at by an Iraqi person you would NOT be saying good shot!!! If you think you would...sorry but you're straight up full of shit!
I'm not quite as eloquent as Crane, my bad!
Extasi...hugs/kisses hon, you're beautiful you don't need to be eloquent! lol...
Hey Crane missing you to sorry It's been crazy lately, I got both your text and will hit ya back soon, I want to get a chance to talk to you with sometime instead of being rushed. I luv ya to crane, thanks for thinking of me sweetie, call or text you very soon! Kisses and Hugs
Para...I feel you and agree with everything you said...and you even mentioned giving the Soldier UCMJ...and what most local and civilian enthusits (that have not previously served) don't understand what UCMJ is...Uniformed Code of Military Justice!! lol And you know how the army is...normally they will strip his rank at a MINIMUM...they do it to any and everybody nowadays, so I really can't forsee with a militant mindframe why they should be any easier on him...but I do agree that this is foolish and even moreso these Soldiers are under some hellified pressure...you and me know that well because we've been out there at least twice!! (or I have)...thanks for the backup, bro!
^HAIL SPARTICUS!!
"The Flag Desecration Amendment, often referred to as the flag burning amendment would allow the United States Congress to statutorily prohibit expression of political views through the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."
"The most recent attempt to adopt a flag desecration amendment failed in the United States Senate by one vote on June 27, 2006"
Well, we tried to make it illegal. Will someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if we do something that is illegal, can't we be arrested for that? Isn't that a form of punishment, with the possibility of more to follow?
Not too long ago in our nation's history, if you were a Jew or a Muslim , living in the South and shot a Bible , you'd end up with a visit by the Klu Klux Klan.
I'm willing to wager that if someone from the Mideast comes over to America right now and shoots a bible and puts and gives it to a church or burns a flag, that there would be an uproar in this country if we didn't do something about it. And I'm willing to bet, some nut case here would try and kill that person, the name of "patriotism".
That soldier disgraced our country and our military. But I'm sure he taught that Koran a lesson and it will never mess with him again!
I don't remember Cimm, how long was it that you served in the military?? Just sounds like maybe you "forgot" the mentality it takes to be in war.....?
