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1.. The Theory of Evolution is not a stand alone science. Its backed up by dozens if not hundreds of other fields. But a handful of right wing Christians want the creation story taught as science in schools. Yet, in the first two or three chapters theres at least unteachable an dechiperable events that can not be read literally. Most Christians don't read them that way. Only a handful and they want to hijack the school system with it and call the Bible a biology /history book.

2. I wouldn't stoop to lying like those good Christians. Im a Christian myself. There are many things in the Evolutionary theory that are under discussion and still debated. There are gaps in the fossil record but these things are being discovered and new fossils are being found all the time. Especially Transional ones or those where you can discern a change in a species. There are other fine points in biology too that are under discussion and being debated. Most of these things are at the doctorate and post doctorate level. Things like Macro vs Micro evolution which can spin ones head right off your shoulders and I stay away from that subject as much as possible.

3. The Theory of Evo is not an atheistic theory anymore than the Theory of Gravity is and BTW less is known about Gravity than Evolution. Its funny how they never say The Gavitational theory or the General or Special theory of Relativity is atheistic.

So here come five States with Bills to dumb kids down. One is Michagan which is surprising considering all the jobs lost there. You might think they would want kids to come to schools there that teach GOOD science. Another is Texas, always Texas in the mix of these things.

A good start for anyone who wants to get rought right up to speed to what I keep bitchin about can google (The Wedge Strategy) This goes all the way back to the Scopes trial.

"http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/us/04evolution.html

"Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy

By LAURA BEIL

Published: June 4, 2008

DALLAS Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to creation science, which became intelligent design, which in 2005 was banned from the public school curriculum in Pennsylvania by a federal judge.

Now a battle looms in Texas over science textbooks that teach evolution, and the wrestle for control seizes on three words. None of them are creationism or intelligent design or even creator.

The words are strengths and weaknesses.

Starting this summer, the state education board will determine the curriculum for the next decade and decide whether the strengths and weaknesses of evolution should be taught. The benign-sounding phrase, some argue, is a reasonable effort at balance. But critics say it is a new strategy taking shape across the nation to undermine the teaching of evolution, a way for students to hear religious objections under the heading of scientific discourse.

Already, legislators in a half-dozen states Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri and South Carolina have tried to require that classrooms be open to views about the scientific strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian theory, according to a petition from the Discovery Institute, the Seattle-based strategic center of the intelligent design movement.

Very often over the last 10 years, weve seen antievolution policies in sheeps clothing, said Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education, a group based in Oakland, Calif., that is against teaching creationism.

The strengths and weaknesses language was slipped into the curriculum standards in Texas to appease creationists when the State Board of Education first mandated the teaching of evolution in the late 1980s. It has had little effect because evolution skeptics have not had enough power on the education board to win the argument that textbooks do not adequately cover the weaknesses of evolution...."

Theres alot about the Cambrian explsion that needs to be found. Just because the record has some gaps(those gpas are being filled litle by little)is no reason to toss ones hands up snd say ok we give up lets just say the Bible says so coz the work is too hard to do.

On and on it goes with these people who dont know and wont accept that the constitution. I have a solution...lets teach alittle of that good time religion in schools and on sunday we'll devote say an half hour of the Churches time to teaching evolution.....Amen? I didnt think so.

I realize there is the temptation to say hey what harm is there in saying or letting the kids debate whether there is a great designer out there? Well for one, just as soon as you do that, Some kid is gonna name his designer. One will be Jehovah, one named Allah and one Named Christ. Another will Say Bhudda...and then to those who THINK that Darwin's work is some kind of atheism, they are wrong. I dont doubt that the man was an atheist.

Darwin wrote A BOOK that was titled the Origins of Species and not the Origins of LIFE

Science makes no claims as to how life began.

Having said this my own beliefs are that I find it very curious that in Genesis that God created the plants,all the ocean life the animals and then Man in that order....Hmmmm same succession that the Thoery of Evo claims.

Scientists are also really very interested in the properties of guess what, with reference to how life might have began....CLAY!!!!! Seems that when certain chemicals are in the presence of clay. organic compunds form.

Surprise surprise another coincidence man was made form Clay. So The Catholic Church say it has no probelm with it as does any number of other Churches. The only people who really cant resolve the issue , and they have the right to bleive in God...no one is denying this...but undertand this

The Right wing evangelicals say that life arrived ABRUPTLY !!!! like one second it wasnt here and badi bing...it all was here at one time complete with sclaes in plcae and trees ully grown and so on and so forth. In fact, Its been put forth that its either all true or its a lie....thats sad to preent the Good Book like that.

See, I say its an Honest account but not totally clear and that God was a physicist, a chemist, biologist, geologist , astronomer and so forth. So I enjoy watching others unlock the secrets to his work and know that more will be revealed.

I just wished those who want to proselytize that they do it in Church or at home or send their kids to some school that teaches all stuff there...like a madrassa school but not in America public schools.

And what does a trial about mouthwash have to do with anything??

"Evolutionism=Atheism"

Why is that?

I can see how evangelical christianity might feel threatened, but don't get how thinking about evolution *or thinking about how things change* equates to not believing in a higher power.

It must have been in the footnotes then where it said God created ape in Roddy McDowell's image, and from there it morphed into man in the image of God.

Personally I seen no problem between science and religion and think evolution is a clever insight into how some things were accomplished.

I do see a problem introducing creation "science" into anything, because it isn't science.

You've been had, Keerok, because there just any such proof. But, you BELIEVE in evolution anyway! Just like other people believe in creationism, even though there isn't any absolute proof.

Maybe the THEORY of Evolution will someday be proven true. Maybe not. But there isn't any absolute proof as yet, and even most evolutionists have long ago given up hope of finding the "missing link", because there isn't any!

Monkeys and humans might have descended from a common ancestor, we didn't evolve from monkeys. At least, I didn't.

The theory of evolution has lots of science behind it, go read up and stop slinging bs.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HQ0WinCWtLs

Yeah right....so lets all just shoot spit balls at George Washingtons picture as you probably did.

Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely

lol...try Talkorigins.com

36 Theory as used in T of E is not your average Theory. By mere fact that you would even use that argument tells me you know very little of the argument but Ill have a few laffs with you.

Keerok, what people choose to believe is their biz I suppose. Evangelicals and others teach from the very get go...that the bible is the word of God , its all true or its a lie....you have to accept this either or proposition.

Yet when you ask them to explain something as simple as when Cain slew his brother and God said he was banishing Cain to the land of Nod...cain cried out no I surely will be killed there.

So God put a mark on Cains head and SAID...anyone who kills Cain will suffer sevenfold. The Bible says so.

Just who are these killers that God is protecting Cain from? Theres no mention of any other people being created in the creation story. Correct? Just Adam and Eve and then Cain and Abel...could someone take a stab at this using the bible and just the word in Genesis.....

Keerok, Richard Dawkins vs the Bishop....I will try to view it...without even seeing it....Ill bet money Dawkins tries to corner the Bishop into some corner where the only logical answer is that God doesnt exists. I am well aware of Mr Dawkins tactics.

Dawkins is well known in Science Cirlces Kee----but Ill view it...if you go or use the library look fo a dvd titled Judgemnt Day: Intelligent design on trial or look for it on NOVA

"Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul" by Kenneth R. Miller was published last week

One review of the Book by Dr Collins who is a devout Christian. "In this powerfully argued and timely book, Ken Miller takes on the fundamental core of the Intelligent Design movement, and shows with compelling examples and devastating logic that ID is not only bad science but is potentially threatening in other deeper ways to America's future. But make no mistake, this is not some atheistic screed -- Prof. Miller's perspective as a devout believer will allow his case to resonate with believers and non-believers alike."

--Francis Collins, Director, the Human Genome Project and author of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.

Miller was on the Colbert Report the other night I heard and the biggest laff line was supposedly...I say, if were related to monkeys, how come theyre not sending me birthday cards?

Which is hilarious because eveyone makes the same mistake. on the Evo tree, we are not related to Monkeys......that was in the planet of the Apes....we are from the Great Ape family....Bonoboos to be exact.

Keerok during the trial of Intelligent Design in PA last yr a so called scientist name Behe was asked to define science because I/D claimed it was a science when it was not. The books used for study were copies of something that were ruled by the Fed Court back in Edwards Vs Aguilar as Creation or religion. so these so called scientist got to cracking...they didnt do one single thing but put their "Science" on a copy machine BUT they made a typo...let that be a leson to those who make one too many typos...they didnt even bother to correct it. It was obvious and it was plagiarism.

So Behe defines science and then on follow up is asked.....under your description, isnt astrology a form of science? Behe answers YES !!! OMG...this was on NOVA and I almost fell of my chair laughing. Talk about the dark ages. that is what they used for science and medicine. Well, their next Scientist Mr. Demsky, he didnt even take the stand but, he took the poor towns peoples legal fees. Just another find example of how these people deal and to what ends they will go.

So a friend asked me after that trial...what will they do now....I took a wild guess..I said really? there's only one move left....take the word Evolution, make it your own and obfuscate the argument and confuse the reader. This is new agenda.

Why not, for instance, goats? Or Komodo Dragons... primates are so boring.

I took the classes from a professor that was a "true believer" in evolution. That's why I know for sure there isn't any proof. I spent a semester at the "U" asking the prof to produce some proof, ANY PROOF. She finally admitted, in front of the entire class, that there wasn't any.

You folks have been conned, just like the flat-worlders were centuries ago. You're just too embarrassed, or committed, to admit it. If you don't think so, where's the PROOF???? Where is the missing link????????

You "believers" need to face reality. You've been conned into believing nonsense.

There is definitive proof that many species have morphed & adapted over the millenia. This is different than an overall theory of evolution, of course

I think the basis here is the issue of separation of church & state...

***You could say Creationism is gospel...whereas evolutionism is just a bunch of monkey business.***** <----see now that is funny and the guy I love to laugh at but

Actually, wasn't that Escape from Planet of the Apes when they had to keep the big secret that the world was coming to an end from the humans?

Wow Flower, I saw all those gay marriages on TV...OMG for sure California is gonna slide into the ocean one day....I also heard that they aren't legal in some other states. It could be possible that one could be in a gay marriage in California and in a real marriage somewhere else, as I see it.

I tend to separate these into physical genetics and intelligent or spiritual genetics. Both have their place as evidenced by how many leading scientists are also devout followers of the old and new testaments. (Ill disregard Hindis, Buddists, etc. for this)

This is an age old battle that has never been won and in my own opinion will never be won except on an individual basis.

The scientific community focuses on an understanding of biology to help all creatures, great and small, survive in this ever changing world. The religious community focuses on humans alone and their ability to adapt to each other, with guidance from above.

While I dont have the figures, my calculator stops after 15 places, Id hazard a guess that more lives have been lost due to Devine Rights than scientific experiments.

Proof... *sighs* stop bragging and go read up, there is a HUGE volume of "proof" for evolution. None of it conflicts with the bible that I've noticed.

Or, show proof of creation.

You might have noticed creation hasn't made it to the hypothesis stage, yet. Build a body of proof that approaches the volume that points towards evolution, then I might listen.

Scorp, my birds are doing well, quite spoiled. I had to find my parrot a new home though... He has a mate of his own kind *nanday conur* and wild quaker parrots to holler at now, and a bunch of cockatiels, which he gets along with. He's got it made.

- sure, evolutionism is a theory. I embrace it as the lesser of two evils-- I hear all the time about religious cults but I never heard the term 'science cult' before. You never hear about Jung devotees overthrowing governments to begin genocide against the Freud loyalists, do you? Besides, even Einstein believed in God, hence his statement regarding God not playing dice with the universe. I think God figures into a lot of science, but between the lines and in the spaces.

- the Aztecs or Incas predicted the end of the world sometime in the 2100's? 2025? Something like that (at least, that's where they stopped adding dates to their calendar?) Early Christians thought Nero was the anti-Christ and predicted the end of the world during his reign. I myself bought bestsellers in the 70's that predicted the end of the world in 1999 (and boy do I wish I could get a refund now). Guess what? Sh*t happens. Guaranteed. Until it does, might as well go on with life and living in a delirium of religious ecstatic fear for the end of times any time now is not my idea of living. For those of you who dig that kind of religious frenzy prominent in your lives, have fun with that.

- when you have religious leaders who calculate the age of the universe to be 7000 years old, you get me very worried that this is what's being proposed for school curriculums under this Intelligent Design. And which religion is going to hold sway under Intelligent Design? The Catholics? Dominicans, Franciscans, Jesuits? Or the Protestants? Would that be the Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecosts, Anabaptists, Four-Squares? Maybe the Mormons? Possibly the Mennonites? Quakers? Shakers? Doukhabours? Puh-lease.

Think they are on a schedule kinda' thinkie?

No matter, I'm glad they share their irresponsibilities

Never heard of the cults resulting from the unbelief in God and, instead, the belief in evolution? Ever hear of Communism? Marxism? Or the NAZI's? They are but a few of the unGodly cults that the evolution conjob have fostered.

We have discussed MENSA, so I'm going to point out that this thread is a perfect example of the "98-percenters", those that can't see past high school level propaganda.

There is definitive proof that many species have morphed & adapted over the millenia. This is different than an overall theory of evolution, of course

I think the basis here is the issue of separation of church & state...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Lisa!

It's true that people and animals can "evolve" in a very limited sense. People, for example, have gotten taller over the years. But there is not a single bit of proof that any critter (human or animal) has ever "evolved" into some other totally different critter. Which is why none of the "believers" in evolution here, or anywhere else, can produce any proof. Therefore, evolution is an anti-God religion, in the sense that it requires "faith & belief" in the unprovable.

As for "separation of church and state", that is another conjob that doesn't exist in the Constitution. The founders of this country never intended any such thing. It was fostered on us by ACLU court cases. And, the ACLU was, and still is, athiest/communist/socialist dominated = another grandchild of the unGodly evolution con.

For example, I didn't "know" that there was zero proof to substantiate human (ape to man) evolution, until I studied Human Palentology.

And, I didn't "know" there was no such thing as "a wall of separation between church and state" in the U.S. Constitution, until I studied Constitutional Law.

The first amendment is still around, is it not? Is this not where the concept of separation of church and state is derived?

That "proof" thing is a really bad argument, I'm surprised a scientifically trained mensa member would take that one on. I'm curious to see if you can get out of it.

So far, you are making a lot of noise.

Is that a proof of the Darwin theory? *l*

Feel free to disprove whatever you like, that's the way science works. You should know that, Mikey.

Basically we've gone off topic and are having a useless debate on a done deal.

I think Scorp has made a valid point, especially seeing what we've just been posting, and we really have to guard our schools against religious intrusions.

And why do you keep lumping the two together? The nazis hated the communists and always did, and were in competition against them for power in pre-war Germany. Communists in nazi Germany weren't given preferential treatment when it came to concentration camps or how soon they were trucked off to them, Russian soldiers were among those worst-treated by the nazis as prisoners of war if taken prisoner at all, German Army Generals were desperate to surrender to anything except the Russians as war's end neared-- the list goes on and on, but you keep lumping them together under the blanket term of socialism, unless of course that's not really you posting but Mr. 36 during his infrequent escapes from the basement. And the communists? Yeah, I forgot what a famous scientist Joe Stalin was, didn't he win a Nobel prize for inventing the pregnant pause or discovering Siberia or some damn thing? For a Mensa-card holder, your thinking is pretty arthritic and smacks of its own forays into pseudo-science. But believe it or not, it's not always all about you all of the time, 36. (And at least in this forum, you don't get to delete a damn thing.)

To get back on topic, up here we have two school systems, public and separate and I don't know if that's common elsewhere or not. You're polled as a property owner on where you want funding from your property taxes to go, whether the public school system or the Catholic separate school system. Apparently, under the Separate School curriculum, religion is taught much like math or chemistry-- my niece said it was one of her best classes (or most favorite, I forget which) after my sister remarried and converted to Catholicism. But even that's still not enough religion for some people (or the wrong religion for others).

It's like the racial profiling in job hunts now, it's gone to the point of reverse discrimination when the best candidates for jobs can't be hired because of quotas and regulations. It's like a mayor in Detroit being free and able to use the word "cracker" when referring to suburbanites and keep his job, but a white newcaster losing his job because he refers to a Japanese American as a Jap. And it's the same thing when a mosque in Dearborn can bellow religious rites at full volume into the streets, but a baptist church can't leave the doors open for fear someone might walk by and hear the sermon and be offended.

Even if a handful of kids in a school find some sort of solace in a token offering of religious instruction in a school, and end up being more compassionate in SPITE of their upbringing at home, or say not to drugs because they've found they are interested in something other than artificial stimulation, isn't that worth it? Would it be worth it if your kid was the difference maker? We're not talking about forcing anyone to conform, or shoving a view down anyone's throat, we're talking about leaving the option open, about making christian information every bit as accessible as everyone elses. Why is it more important that kids learn calculus, which they're probably never use in their entire life, or learn to play kickball, but not something that could give them actual inspiration if they decide they want it? I'd like to see a politician just once say, "you know what, how about if there's a problem here we try to find a middle ground", instead of always taking things to the opposite extreme. When will we ever learn?

===============================================================

This is an example of what I meant when I said people need to learn the basic facts first, before entering into a discussion. The communists and Nazi's had at least one thing in common. Namely a socialist/athiest anti-God "true belief". You do understand that both Soviet communists and German Nazi's were socialists don't you? The Soviet's international socialists, the Nazi's national socialists.

Bottom line is that the American schools are now GOVERNMENT schools that teach the one and only Government approved religion = athiesm. Which is precisely what the First Amendment forbids.

As for the so-called "WALL", it isn't in the Constitution. If you think it is, show me. The phrase originated with Jefferson who wrote it in a letter to one particular church, long after the Constitution was written, and ever since it has been taken completely out of context by the athiest enemies of the USA.

Some of you folks have been brainwashed by the schools and the socialist/communist/athiest ACLU .............. and you don't even know it. Which is how brainwashing works.

There is no mention of "Church", "State", "separation", or "wall" in the First Amendment.

The prohibition in the First Amendment is addressed EXCLUSIVELY to CONGRESS. States, schools, etc., are NOT included.

The First Amendment states in part "...Congress shall make no laws...prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]...

There is no mention of a freedom FROM religion.

Now.........I wonder why we never learned all this in our beloved GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS? The same schools that have needed armed police in the halls to maintain order ever since religion was banned. The same schools that now need day are facilities for unwed teens. The same schools where mass murders now take place. The same schools that now need dope sniffing dogs to hunt down narcotics.

When I went to public school, religious study was never part of our curriculum. It was never brought up in any context outside of Christmas and that was not looked at as the birth of Christ but more as a holiday season.

The #1 problem in schools then was gum chewing. But in the 50's and 60's married women were house wives and we lived in "Leave it to Beaver" land, with "Father Knows Best" leading the way to live for "My Three Sons". And we were watched over by Andy Griffith as the good cop.

Since we didn't have religous study or time for religous prayer in schools through out the 20th century, and violence among children was not as prevalent as it is now, what is making the difference?

Parents weren't coming home and sitting in front of the TV at the end of the day. They interacted with their familys more

All of these problems that we are having start with our society at large. From the types of programming on TV to the video games that children are given to play (almost all of them violent), to the absentee parenting, to the prejudice that our nation's police force exhibit with their racial profiling.

Now the #1 problem in schools are guns.

But lets try and force these kids to pray (because that will make a big difference) and while we do that, lets not teach them intolerance (because that would not be Christian like) and be fair and give time to Muslims to worhip by calling out to Mecca during school hours (which would offend the Christians and atheists); Hindu's to build altars for prayer (which would offend both the Christians, atheists and the Muslims), put up religous icons for the Catholics (which would offend the other Christian religions and the Muslims and the atheists) allow the Jews to pray in their own way (which would offend the Christians, the Muslims, the atheists). And lets not forget about putting up statues of Buddha for those who need to meditate and burn incense in respect, which would offend all of the other religious people too.

Then we need to figure out how to reglate the school day to accomodate all of these religous beliefs.

In the mean time, when your kids come home and you're not there because you're away at work, then can get on the internet and play violent video games and watch violent TV shows, music videos and listent to music that glorifies violence (because those are in actallity an honest reprsentation of our society).

I just watched my friends daughter graduate high school and get accepted to NYU. She speaks 3 languages, is very well read and highly intelligent and has a good head on her shoulders. She isn't religious and neither are her parents. They are all very spiritual people though and not bound to any sort of worship. TV was not a part of her life, outside of educational programs on PBS and the Discovery channel, and videos were always great old classic movies. And she didn't play video games.

Her parents and how they raised her are the ones that made the difference in her life.

We're talking about hope and options here, not guarantees. The only faith that is getting left out of schools these IS Christianity, so why would all the other religions be upset? By the way, Buddhists wouldn't be upset no matter which faith was studied in schools, they typically accept any faith into their centers without discrimination. The reason is, they believe in a personal journey through meditation and enlightenment, and that could differ from person to person. They don't usher you out the door if you believe in God, any more than they usher you out if you kneel to Muhammad, or a sacred cow. They are probably the most open and friendly group of people around. Name me one Buddhist terrorist and I'll concede the argument right now, lol.

Where did anyone say anything about forcing kids to pray??

I took the classes from a professor that was a "true believer" in evolution****

Thirty Sexy if you are unlucky enough to have to have surgery...theres another THEORY you can reject....its called general Anaesthesia Techniques. http://www.usyd.edu.au/anaes/medapteq/anaestechniques.html We gather that because some patients have undergone some surgeries under brutal pain that its JUST A THEORY

36, so you should tell the Surgeon that you reject this theory also...just take a bullet or a wooden peg to bite down on.

Tell them that perhaps you'd enjoy doing it the old way before this JUST A THEORY came along. Choosing to remain totally ignorant.

Or heres just one story a Modern Miracle of sorts...Evolutionists dont like the word miracle.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/transplant-girl-a-miracle/2008/01/24/1201157559928.html

"Kate Benson Medical Reporter

January 25, 2008

SHE'S got purple highlights in her hair and bright blue fingernails, but to doctors at the Children's Hospital at Westmead, Demi-Lee Brennan is a one-in-6 billion miracle.

The 15-year-old liver transplant patient is the first person in the world to take on the immune system and blood type of her donor, negating the need to take anti-rejection drugs for the rest of her life. The phenomenon, which has been documented in the New England Journal of Medicine, has amazed doctors, who say they have no idea how it occurred.

Demi-Lee, of Gerroa on the South Coast, was nine when she contracted a virus that destroyed her liver. She was given less than 48 hours to live when a donated liver from a 12-year-old boy became available.

"She's my little hero," her mother, Kerrie Mills, said yesterday. "When she was admitted to intensive care, she was very sick, and yellow We were told we were losing her."

With only hours to spare, Demi-Lee had a 10-hour operation and was started on a cocktail of immuno-suppressant drugs, the standard fare for transplant patients to ensure their bodies do not reject the donated organ.

Nine months later, when her condition worsened and she was readmitted, doctors were shocked to find that her blood type had changed. The head of hematology, Julie Curtin, said she was stunned when she realised Demi-Lee was now O-positive, rather than O-negative.

"I was convinced we had made a mistake, so we tested it again and it came up the same. Then we tested her parents and they were both O-negative, so it was confirmed that Demi absolutely had to have been O-negative."

Dr Curtin said Demi-Lee's blood then began to break down, requiring more medications.

"We then realised it was her own residual cells which were causing the problem and we needed to get rid of them. And that's when we knew we had to convince the doctors that Demi's immuno-suppressant drug regime should be stopped, rather than increased."

But paediatric nephrologist Stephen Alexander says he wasn't easily convinced.

"We didn't believe this at first. We thought it was too strange to be true," Dr Alexander said. "Normally the body's own immune system rejects any cells that are transplanted but for some reason the cells that came from the donor's liver seemed to survive better than Demi-Lee's own cells. It has huge implications for the future of organ transplants."

Demi-Lee, who has now been off all immuno-suppressants for 3 years, is playing sport and working towards her school certificate. "I feel quite normal. It's almost like it never happened," she said yesterday. "I can't thank the donor's family enough, and the doctors, for giving me this second chance at life."

She has her sights on starring on Australian Idol. "That's partly why I've dyed my hair black," she whispered. "I'm a rock singer."

Until the Biologist unwind this event and turn it inside out and understand it completely, they have no complete explanation but its clear that her body has changed.

Evolution=change. It comes about when environmental changes or an invasion of the bioligical system occurs. Unless someone thinks we should just stand off and in wonderment just say, its a miracle and lets not understand it...its TOO hard to comprehend...I say Thank GOD for this gift and lets understand it as completely..not teach dumb things in schools. These are the things where lets say, theology and science definately should or could walk together.

"Buddhists wouldn't be upset no matter which faith was studied in schools, they typically accept any faith into their centers without discrimination. The reason is, they believe in a personal journey through meditation and enlightenment, ...."

I absolutely agree with that whole statement 100%.

Both the Buddha's message and the Christ's message was about compassion.

The Buddhist knows that one's experience with the spiritual is found within and that rather than preaching, it is a matter of developing one's "inner life" through meditation and contemplation to the point where they manifest the beauty that they find within, into their outter life. They have the wisdom to know that they don't need to set aside a time to find "peace and tranquility"; they can find it anytime because it exists within them.

So why do the "Christians" need to have a time for prayer in school?

And whose to say what is the correct way of looking at Chistianity and prayer? Whose going to define that? I don't think that it should be defined, because it's personal. But tell the Pope that; Or the head of the Mormon church, or the "Born Again" Christians, or Pat Robertson, or the Protestants, etc. Faith and worship have always been a source of contention between civilizations throughout history.

"the separation of church and state" is from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote. We had this discussion here about 6 years ago. Jefferson wrote that to keep the Baptists out of politics to deny the ancient and historic repetition of religion being the highest authority in the land. Which is something that the Baptists were aiming to be at the time.

The first settlers came here to find religious freedom as have multitudes of people since.

I believe in Christ. But I have a different, esoteric viewpoint about that Being. For me to want to push my experience of that onto someone else, impacts their freedom. This forum is about "creationism" over evolution being taught in school. And the concept is strictly and solely from a so called "Christian" viewpoint and it's inclusion in school or the desire to exclude evolution in favor of creationism, is only being pushed by the "Christian" right. The Hindus' don't agree with the concept. The Muslims don't, a lot of religions don't. What gives this "Christian" viewpoint the moral authority over other religions that it has to be taught in school?

While I find the concept of evolution (and phyisical science in general) to be lacking and materially oriented, I don't find the creationist concept to be that deep and wisdom filled. Rather I find it to be something that is being sold by those who are all too ready to cry heresy at the nay sayers, than those who are just looking to offer another possible viewpoint.

Perhaps public schools are different in Detroit than they are in Los Angeles. Here, reference to any religion is made in the context of it's historical and sociological impact on the region in which it was developed. No one religion is given more importance over another.

Once again, you're changing the argument Cim. The question wasn't whether religion would replace parenting skills, so why does it keep coming back to that? Are you saying that if a child doesn't have good parents that they then shouldn't be exposed to religion either? If you're not, I don't see your point. No, it is not good for kids to be left alone for long periods of time,and no, it is not good for parents to not care about their kids enough to teach them right from wrong, and stay the course when they're needed at home. But why does that make it wrong to leave the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or teach Creationism in schools along with Big Bang Theories, evolution, or anything else that attempts to explain things largely unprovable?

Hey, I'm not a bible thumper. Far from it, I don't go to church regularly, and I'm not exactly a beacon for kids to model themselves after. I never claim to be, and I don't ever try to force my beliefs on anyone else...I just don't understand how it is that having a little religious text here and again in the school system hurts anyone. Did I say only Christianity should be taught? No...but I do think it belongs with the other teachings. Religion can be a tool for many people, and it helps many people deal with stress and the daily grinds of life, whether we agree or not. Just because some people don't use that tool wisely doesn't mean it should be banned from everyone. I personally don't care what Pat Roberts or anyone else claiming "authority" thinks about how it should be implemented, I'm just saying it should be available. Kids that aren't interested won't pay attention, but maybe some will. Shouldn't we be giving our kids all the possibilities and tools we can?

As far as the video games and media angle, sure they've gone downhill as far as how they used to be, but this is kind of like blaming Charles Manson's deeds on the Beatles, or Diane Downs' murders of her kids on "Hungry Like the Wolf." Blaming rap songs for people being killed infers that the music makes kids do evil deeds. If that's the case, then why do millions of other kids listen to the same songs and not kill anyone? Why is it millions of kids play videogames every day, even violent ones like Grand Theft Auto, but most end up just fine? I think it's more how predisposed they are...you can cite their upbringing, their value systems, a lot of things, but a stimulus only works when it has an opportunity and the means to work, and growing up without caring parents has a lot to do with it, but so does a value system and compassion for others, and a sense of hope. Religion, whether we accept it or not, offers that to a lot of people. Does it take the place of parents? No. So what. It's not intended to. But could it help kids that DON'T have support at home? Possibly. Isn't it worth the chance?

Am I saying you are stupid? Yep!

My comments were in response to these statements: "By all means don't teach religious fundamentals in the schools, they're doing so well without it,..."

"the home being a problem, however that being said, isn't that all the more reason they should have another source of guidance.." the implication is that Christianity is the faith that should be their succor in lew of anything else.

While you might not be advocating the teachings of Christianity in school as "the be all and end all", the religous right in this country is and wants to. And they are using some of what you have written here as part of their argument to inject their biased doctrine into the school system.

Unless I missed something Captain, no where in the constitution does it talk about the United States being founded on Christianity.

Religion is devisive and historically has been a basis for intolerance.

John Locke argued "that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution."

Here is a copy of what Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists regarding the First Amendment:

""Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.""

I believe that the moment you inject religion you inject a bias into something that is supposed to be objective.

My friend's daughter graduated from a really good public high school. Every honor student that got up to make a speach, thanked specific teachers for the individual concern and personal attention that they got from them.

Not a single student said anything about their God or faith getting them through, what I know was a very grueling couple of years of study.

I believe that this desire to inject a so called "Christian" viewpoint into the school system is anything but altruistic. It is something that is subject to interpretation.; Who is going to define what that interpretation should be? And what about the personal beliefs of the teachers?

I had a number of teachers that were Jewish and Catholic. Catholics don't study the Bible. Will they be able to teach Christanity in school? And will there be a school police to monitor them if they don't agree with what they are being told to teach?

This idea of religion in schools, opens up a can of worms that is not what our founding fathers wanted opened.

"

June 20, 2008 - 10:58pm

In this photo released by Mount Vernon, Ohio, City Schools as a part of independent investigation report, a Mount Vernon student with a branded cross on his arm is shown. A public school teacher taught creationism in his science class and used a device to burn the image of a cross on students' arms, according to a report by independent investigators. Mount Vernon Middle School teacher John Freshwater was insubordinate in failing to remove a Bible and other religious materials from his classroom and continued to preach his Christian beliefs despite complaints by other teachers and administrators, the report also said. (AP Photo/Mount Vernon City Schools) By DOUG WHITEMAN

Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - The school board of a small central Ohio community voted unanimously Friday to fire a teacher accused of preaching his Christian beliefs despite staff complaints and using a device to burn the image of a cross on students' arms.

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/index.php?nid=80&sid=1425702

Captain , not to be snarky with you personally but that idea is for one as Cimm said, is unconstituional.

In 2008 after Christ death and we are still being assaulted by the Dark Ages. For the love of Jesus Christ , the page has been turned long ago.

Crusade, anyone?

hahahahaha

Whats with the sensitivity thingy. Its a topic of discussion not a gothcha moment. I read what you presrcibe to, I find myself in the same category.

Theres a million and one freeking steepled Churches for the religious teachings of this land. Probably 10x editions of the bible but Relgion finds it needs to come to science class?

lol...Crusaders...grab your honey and enjoy your Stanley Cup Rick...your taking offense peronally to something that wasnt meant for you.

Here, I thougt that you and Cimm and I could talk without arguing....I dont hold anything against Cimm for all his insults...havent been back to the subtitled "I hate you too' forum since side burns erased my insults in the other forum...

When I grow up I am going to be just like Robbie and not care what anyone thinks.....So what its gonna take to stroke you now? Mostie....take him to Chuckie Cheese , please!

On the other hand, if you werent passionate about what you believe Captain it wouldnt impresss anyone I dont think.

I emailed a friend after our outbursts in the other topic...Told her ...you notce its ALWAYS the men who argue like kids...never the women...

She wrote back laffing and said Ray...women always consider men to be like kids. Not taking sides or anything. I think it was "Just a Theory" she had.

======================================================================

Yes, Cim, you've missed the entire point of the Constitution, and you can probably thank the NEA and your teachers for that. See "Church of the Holy Trinity vs the United States" an 1892 US Supreme Court decision, where the higest court in the land found: That America was a Christian nation from its eatliest days. Reaffirmed by the Supreme Court in 1931 stating that, Americans are a Christian people.

==========================================================================

Cim, you might have a point were it not for the fact that "evolution" is being taught to the complete exclusion of all other beliefs. Add pro-evolution "political correctness" demands within the school system making the "rational questioning" of evolution essentially illegal, and you have a government mandated belief in a quasi-religion, an anti-God athiest religion. Which is precisely what the 1st Amendment forbids.

*

It's like when we have a Hannukah lesson in school for our students, even though 100% of the students in our classroom are from a Christian home, yet, even if the real meaning of Christmas (at least the birth of Christ part- and yes, I know this is still another deep topic about when Christ was born), people start complaining, yet we can display Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and winter solstice. Ever notice how many people get nervous when CHRISTIANITY comes into the picture?

*

Ironically, 36, my husband and I have had that very conversation many times about how moral values got thrown out of the school system. It's exactly when the athiest took control over our school system. It's when you started hearing about more violence, and not enough consequences for one's actions. I can still remember when we prayed in school. We were never afraid that one of our classmates would come into the school and shoot us up. The worst a student would do was put thumb tacks on the teacher's chair or draw an ugly witch on the chalk board and write the teacher's name beside it. We got paddled for doing wrong and it didn't hurt our self esteem. We got detention after school and had to write a thousand sentences and even though our hands felt like they'd fall off, they never did.

*

Science and Religion has always been a controversy between each other, because they always want to cancel the other. I what if God looks like Albert Eintein, boy would that be a shock!

Good forum, Scorp. It would appear allowing creation science into the school curriculum has a certain appeal to many.

Maybe we should stop teaching math and science at all, I mean nobody uses it anyways, right?

Communists and socialists and athiests, oh my!! *laughing!!*

*

I read about that teacher in Ohio who burned crosses onto students arms and that's a very sad thing that he did. Absolutely wrong and he should be punished, but again, because one person did this doesn't mean that every Christian believer is going to go around burning crosses onto our children. I won't let fear get in the way of how I live. That's where my own personal faith comes into play in my life and the lives of my children and grandchildren. I don't claim that nothing bad every happens to us, but if I am who I say I am, which is a Christian, then I need to trust God to watch over my children. I don't just trust Him, I go through the whole praying routine. Something some people (not all) don't get because they say they trust, but there's no actual communication between them and God. Then you get a bunch of unbelievers who blame God for bad things that happen in their lives when in all actuality, there wasn't any asking, praying, trusting, expecting, worshipping going on, what does one really expect?? (AGAIN, this is yet another topic not really for this thread)

*

I highly doubt that my kids will be brainwashed into radical beliefs such as car theft and other criminal acts. I can honestly say that raising my children alone was very hard and I had my doubts about how they were going to grow up, but now that I have Hobbs to help me raise them in a loving and supportive home. We attend church every week. We pray before every meal. We listen and don't judge, yet enforce rules and consequences for diliberate actions of rebellion. We have a strong communication with the kids and have other kids here around the clock. When the kids aren't here, I know where they're at and they're only a phone call away. We don't spoil them but they have everything they need. They know how to work and earn money. They're well behaved in school and earn decent grades. They're both actually taking college courses. Now, I'm not posting this to brag about our lifestyle, my point is, our Christian beliefs and good moral teaching is a great part of what we do every day of our lives. Something I was pointing out with why our school system is failing, because there are no morals in schools anymore.

*

For my home, we separated "religion and Christian values" in our home. Which is why in my profile, I state that I am not religious (a misconception many people perceive when they find out you're a Christian)

*

I'm not saying that we're the best parents in the world and our way is the only way, but it works for our family and I am not claiming my kids are perfect in any way, but again, what we're doing is working and I wouldn't live my life any other way, nor would I ever consider another person's way of raising my children. If they fail somewhere along the way, then they do. It's what happens, but I won't blame myself for not trying. I'd blame myself if I neglected them or let them walk all over me and every adult in the world... and for the record, I am not raising my kids the way my own parents raised me. Change had to take place somewhere along the road.

*

Getting back to the subject of how corrupt the education system is, how can anybody say that the school system is any better today than it was more than 20 years (plus) ago? (posted rhetorically)

*

It takes a person's actions to be a true Christian than to simply claim that they are (church has nothing to do with it), thus my opinion on that census (back in 2001?) is that it isn't very accurate. And religion has nothing to do with it, it's true and pure actions of how a person carries themselves. Greed and control are not on the list of actions. I can sit here and claim I'm a shoe, but would that be true?

it looks AWESOME!

if you run out of those, you can get more at www.*.com

So, 36 your posts are just your opinion and thats all. You are not an authority, just someone who is making an interpetation to suit your needs.

The courts of continuously ruled on keeping religion out of the public schools and presidents w/ ties to the religous right wing keep trying to put people on the judiciary bench who will be biased in their asseessment of the First Amendment.

But.. I do have a question for you. Based upon your desire to see creationism included in the school curriculum, do you want to see the 10 Commandments included also? I am assuming that is something that you find as bearing credible moral weight in the same vein as creationism.

I believe that this desire to inject a so called "Christian" viewpoint into the school system is anything but altruistic. The true nature of Christianity is something that is subject to interpretation. Who is going to define what that interpretation of what a Christian teaching should be? And what about the personal beliefs of the teachers?

I had a number of teachers that were Jewish and Catholic. Catholics don't study the Bible. Will they be able to teach Christanity in school? And will there be a school police to monitor them if they don't agree with what they are being told to teach?

what exactly do the following have to do with one another:

A: Evolution (a scientific theory)

B: Religion (a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects not limited to monotheism)

C: Christianity (the Christian sect religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus)

Science and Religion were around thousands of years before the birth of christianity

ie - John the pagan science teacher religiously avoided christian conversation until he had evolved into a monk

words

you can try to arrange them to fit your needs, prove a point, bolster your argument, but the bottom line, it's simply an argument

it's all "opinion of another's opinion"

nothing more - nothing less

*

Cristo, you should have borrowed some of my "*"s for your post, geeezz, what are you thinking?

*

Opinions, Opinions, Opinions, that's what these forums are all about, now aren't they? Let's not let our feelings get all scuffed up. Far be it for me to shove "religion" **cough** down anybody's throat, like the big bad Christian politicians do and Lord help me if ever get "my" Christian feelings hurt if the mention of banning my beliefs be rallied or become an uproar in "The Big Politician House", where I'm sure many old fogies discuss how our education system should be. Chances are, some of those politicians don't have children of their own, but all of a sudden they're experts on how to raise them.. that's hilarious! That's what really bites the weenie!

*

what exactly do the following have to do with one another:"

That post makes a good point.

what exactly do the following have to do with one another:

A: Evolution (a scientific theory)

B: Religion (a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects not limited to monotheism)

C: Christianity (the Christian sect religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus)

Science and Religion were around thousands of years before the birth of christianity

ie - John the pagan science teacher religiously avoided christian conversation until he had evolved into a monk

words

you can try to arrange them to fit your needs, prove a point, bolster your argument, but the bottom line, it's simply an argument

it's all "opinion of another's opinion"

nothing more - nothing less*****

This is something I completely agree with. Theres no question that Long before anyone went up on A Mountain and brought done 10 commandmendts, men discussed what was acceptable. Sumarian writings are curiously similar to Books of the Bible. In fact, very long ago the Greeks invisioned or conceptualized the Atom. the smallest partical(the missed the electron but hey, not bad for just thinking). They knew the world was round. It wasnt until a Good Man died on a Cross...rose up "I believe" and some other Men...or maggots hijacked his life and teachings to build their institutions and empires that the Earth became flat and ideas was burnt out of mens minds and hearts....in door plumbing went out the window...and people stopped bathing...lol...it got dark.

****Scorpio, you keept taking shots at people and then blaming everyone else. Give it a rest, you're tainting a good discussion with that crap.**** Ok Cimm, I dont want to degrade this forum, honestly. For the most part youre preaching to the choir here. BTW Cimm. I dont require the soothing flowing words to grasp the constitutional Stance. But I would appreciate it, if you object to anything I say in the future you dont address me like you're my father. I have been civil to you, I have expresed that I dont really know where it was went off track as far you and I were concerned. It doesn't matter. I wasnt throwing shots AT anyone. At ideas perhaps. If people take things to heart, they need not.

I admit its a little hard to remain academic when over and over the same idea comes back as if the constitution doesnt matter. You wrote a good piece of Jefferson. I tohought

You're last statemnent is , for the most part incorrect, I did prefix my post to rick that it wasnt being snarky towards him. It didnt sem to sink in. or maybe I missed his humor. I usually catch his humor.

You Cimm, you wont mind giving me the same respect with which you demand. Dont correct me like a child Cimm? I'm conducting myself rather civil and anything you say, you should say in the same tone, or hold it as I am doing and have promised.

I didnt take any shots at anyone dude...not at all. At the idea that we should overlook Supreme Court decisions and sneak religion back into school, yes. As you can see there are those who would hitch their wagons to the idea without knowing exactly what it is. How many people here really know what Intelligent Design is? I wont accept any nonsensical comment from people who talk about I/D and really dont know what is for one thing, and dont make an attempt to support its scienctific view....because there is no science Cimm to it. Its all BS . Its like the land of OZ, you pull back the curtain and the Great OZ of their Creation is just this guy who isnt that snarley scary voice....but just a man like them who is a blowhard. I dont want my kids....should I have anymore God forbid.....to go off to school to be taught by the wizard. <end sarcasm>

I'm not sure if they even know that what I am saying is this....I believe also...but what cant be rigorously tested, cant be taught as science. It's clear that the "belief systems" are for Churches...(it gets tiresome reminding people of that) Everytime I post it...it comes back ....hmmm but why... but why cant we teach religion in schools?

Cimm your question of whose Religion will be in charge?

Well, Baylor College for one is Baptist School but they are a College and you pay to go there.

HS level is the public School system their cant be any. We have some good Catholic Schools here. People sometimes charge the Ctholics with alot of things, I do it myself...I can as I am a Catholic but we do have schools. even in Catholic Schools youll find that evolution is explored in science clas. That is how far Catholics have come. The Vatican realized to surviuve as an institution it had to modify its graps on minds and ideas. god made the universe, is enough or them to handle. They are letting science gather its work and holding fast to the idea that whenever Man arived here, god infused a Soul. And that Whole Soul Concept is another area of discussion. Thos two alone are enough for the Church to handle I think.

I told Rick I wasnt being snarky...I happened across the cross burning on the news it wasnt a gotcha moment. Stomping off the forums...wasnt nice.

When the Supreme Court has a split decision, those who dissent still remain friendly. I know they do. People can disagree without getting mad. Hey I dont like alot of what happens.

I think that If the whole world thought like I do it would run alot better.

I'm sure other people feel the same. if the world ran like they felt it should they all would be happier.

People would use their turn signals and yeild to those on the right. Little kids would hustle money at the supermarkets helping women loading groceries like I did as a kid.

Then I would be much happier but things dont go like that.

And...what if tomorrow you wake up and NASA says they have found life on Mars? How will the Genesis Story include or explain that? Im sure we could find one single word in it and use Clintonian definitions as to what the word is IS or some other esoteric meaning known only those wizards of theology.

Or maybe we'll explain it in biological terms that we all can understand. Therein lies the problem. the genesis story as pushed into the heads of people as Abrupt appearance of life is so unbelievable only God can understand it. Only Faith can believe it. That is why it needs to be taught in church and not in schools.

What I dont get with the folks who dont quite understand the evolutionary concept is just how crucial it is for the rest of us or how it might be in the future to survive.

I'll give everyone an exmple.

Post 9/11 Weapons grade anthrax was unleashed in this country through the mail system. It was never solved where or WHO inserted this Highly sofisicated killer into the mail system. They( whoever they are) are still out there and presumably have more anthrtax.

We dont hear much about this but, I remember it well.

Recently we saw a brilliant piece of screen writing if anyone watched Andromeda Strain. It wrapped alot of what I have been been reading on the possibilities of war and of fighting infection over the past tow or say three yrs..

I'm going to roll backwards with this. At he very end of the movie the Bio-Whatever was placed in Space on the ISS.

On the ISS is s company called SpaceHab. Its on the stock market and five freeking yrs ago or there about when it went public it soared to 45 dollars. Its now down to about 50 cents. It was at 8 dollars early this yr. I'm hoping to get some soon and it bounces. To be honest.

Spacehab is up there to find new ways to fight infection and recently in

It wasnt overwriting by the screen writer of Andromeda. The premise of the book by Crichton was a govt inserted or tested a bio weapon not a wormhole. Bacyllus Fernus or whatever it was called had some weird looking ...almost broken Star of David, if anyone recalls. OK, so Im weaving the movie in and out..so?!!!

The weapon was acting like a bacteria and spreading over a wide area.

Enter cutie hottie Dr Bonnie Bassler of Printon NJ

http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/bassler_bio.html

"Until recently, the ability of bacteria to communicate with one another was considered an anomaly that occurred only among a few marine bacteria. It is now clear that group talk is the norm in the bacterial world, and understanding this process is important for fighting deadly strains of bacteria and for understanding communication between cells in the human body.

Bonnie Bassler has discovered that bacteria communicate with a chemical language. This process, called quorum sensing, allows bacteria to count their numbers, determine when they have reached a critical mass, and then change their behavior in unison to carry out processes that require many cells acting together to be effective....For example, one process commonly controlled by quorum sensing is virulence. Virulent bacteria do not want to begin secreting toxins too soon, or the host's immune system will quickly eliminate the nascent infection. Instead, Bassler explained, using quorum sensing, the bacteria count themselves and when they reach a sufficiently high number, they all launch their attack simultaneously. This way, the bacteria are more likely to overpower the immune system. Quorum sensing, Bassler says, allows bacteria to act like enormous multicellular organisms. She has shown that this same basic mechanism of communication exists in some of the world's most virulent microbes, including those responsible for cholera and plague."

Now how could a bacteria do this if it dont have some capacity to calculate our own immune system for an attack? Little tiny Texas Instrument Calculators? intelligence?

I sure hope if any theology takes hold of teaching they dont throw her works on the bonfires...our early Christians brothers had a way with Bonfires.

I'm very glad and happy to have people like this Dr and feel comforted that she wasnt discouraged at some point in her life by some religious intrusion and fought through all the hard work of biology.

There was a time When Bassler was a big risk....I saw her Biograghy done on New Jersey Network. What if someone had pushed into her work with some religious idea and in exasperation he gave up. What if a "little religion" prevents going into these ideas because to give bacteria some kind of intelligence is going Too far for them?

Some groups of Bacteria act like terrorists. They group up against larger ones and then once defeated, split off and fight one another again. Its amazing and Bassler is developing chemicals to shut this down. Meaning, if we have bacteria running wild she might save our Asses some day...I would note her name for the future.

In the ill guided world of creationism, man walked with dinosaurs. This is bad science teaching. The town of Bedrock only existed on TV.

I wouldnt blame scientists for finding the truth and bringing to us. What we do with it is probably much more important.

"Evolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Science's statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously."

I wonder just how comfortable people would be if lets say their own child was having some internal problem and needed a specialist. Given the choice of say a person who studied at Baylor or another alternative school that taught Intelligent Designed Medicine, having now known tht its backed by people who also say their definiton of science has to be so loose as to include astrology to also include their OWN so called science would choose the Dr of ID medicine over the Dr from Baylor?

Hmmmm....let me open up the directory of Drs....nah...hes from Baylor....hehe...nah shes from Baylor or some other Evolutionary Bio teaching school..

OK!!!! HERE we go.... DR BEHE of the Intelligent Design "disco institute" of Medicine now specializing in pediatrics while the copy machine is broken and studying stengths and weakness' in the evolutinary "Just a Theory" lol....its too funny...I mean no one in their right mind , I least no one should consider taking their child to anyone who doesnt have a good grasp of biology.

Cimm "While I find the concept of evolution (and phyisical science in general) to be lacking and materially oriented, I don't find the creationist concept to be that deep and wisdom filled" Looks like fence sitting but forgoet that.

At the biological level, you believe that evolution is material?

Ya think!? I mean we're inclined to observe the natural world and we ask Science to explain it to us. What other field of view should we use Cimm? We use Chemistry and experiment with that. We use radiaology in hospitals in the practice of applying what we learn...all sorts of other stuff. You go off into nowheres making statements like this pragmatically speaking.

Telling stories around camp fires isnt enough. Hanging garlic isnt a cure. Arent you one of those guyz who doesnt like the environment mucked up? How shall we solve that? Take some oil from the ground and paint our faces with it and do a little dance? Its going to be with Chemistry and biology. In fact, theres enzimes that eat waste. how would we find them if we wernt applying we we learned in the good science classes.

xxxxxxxx

I deleted the above and changed only one letter. didnt want someone trying to find *Baylot college.

Cimm: dont take my sarcsm as a driect shot. This is a major misconception about my writings I think. Soem of what youve written sems to leave the reader standing on the end of a plank. why? Well for one, Cimm. people here try to accomodate you questions.

Verita spoke about schools presenting other cultures Xmas time season celebration in schools. Spiritual values have a place in society and even in the public school system. Having said that, the more we try to accomodate all types of Belief systems into the aena of learning...we should be aware that some of our particulars to Christianity and its approach might get watered down. How do we feel about that? First among them is the Divinity of Christ.

no one ever mentions how we are this huge monotheisitic religion of Jews and islamic Muslims wrapped from and drawed from the same one-god lineage. Jews and Muslims dont believe in the Divine Christ Idea at all. Soo any examination of his life , and some even question is very existance, will only be troubling to the true believer in Christ.

This is one more reason why Madison wrote in a letter to someone...Ill try to find it....Ill paraphrase ehre...."why would some want govt involved in their relgion"....he didnt.

When you invite religion into schools and have it marry Govt, youre inviting govt to mold it for presentation for a wider audience. I dont want that. Theres Hindus , Christians, Muslims, Jews, Bhudists, Wiccans and non-beleiers in anything other than the almighty dollar going to school. They might all come together in some form of presenting Christ as a communist moocher....who walked from town to town and never really had much of a vocation but stirried up politics and tened to the poor and sick. how would that go over? Not very well I dont think. Not with me.

CNN is doing a piece this morning on global viral pathogens. People are hunting in jungles for monkeys and other food sources and transfering killer virus'. When people snicker at our relation to the primate family, I remind them that HIV Came from the Rheses Monkey. Theres a New Monkey Pox strain out there too.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/monkeypox/factsheet2.htm

These pathogens that jump from species to species...Bird flu, if it gets loose is really scarey....is more proof of the links between the species. The only "ignorance is blis" is the idea that we arent connected. We can pretend all we like, that isnt going to stop a killer virus.

Ok I can play this game. Lets see...I was looking through the online version of the New York Times today and ran across this headliner from a previous edition:

"An outbreak of violence among fans at an England-Ireland soccer game in Dublin tonight forced referees to cancel the match midway through the first half and raised fears in Britain that a scourge of hooliganism was resurfacing after a period of relative calm.

A group of English fans in the upper deck ripped up seats and threw pieces of wood and metal at spectators below and onto the field minutes after Ireland took a 1-0 lead in an exhibition match between the two national teams.

With the police moving in and the situation threatening to spiral out of control, the referee ordered the teams off the field 27 minutes into the match. England's captain, David Platt, ran to the sidelines and gestured for the relatively small band of violent fans to stop. He was nearly hit by a piece of wood hurled at him."

...this just goes to prove my point. Anyone play soccer? There's a round ball and two nets and lots of screaming fans and did you know the history of the game..it's chock full of violence. Violence begets violence. What does this have to do with evolution versus religion in the schools? Absolutely nothing, but neither does pathology. Did you know that the Thin Prep Pap solution kits are made by only one vendor and they have a complete monopoly on the medical market at this time, a company called Cytyc. Is this free enterprise, ala Gates? No, and I'll prove it with this, researched just today and did you know one mingler slept with another in Cancun when I was there? I'm not naming names but a rolling stone gathers no moss, if you catch my drift, and rust never sleeps:

"1. Fewer than one-half of 1% of the nations doctors face any serious state sanctions each year. 2,696 total serious disciplinary actions a year, the number state medical boards took in 1999, is a pittance compared to the volume of injury and death of patients caused by negligence of doctors. A recent study by the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences estimated that as many as 98,000 patients may be killed each year in hospitals alone as a result of medical errors.Earlier studies also found that this was a serious national problem."

Did these doctors teach creationism in the schools? I'd bet my left testicle they did NOT. But pathogens leap from building to building in a single bound. Could superman catch a virus? I think the answer will change the Metropolis for centuries to come.

But here's some perspectives from an outsider for some of you to consider: how many other Western countries are seriously having this discussion about introducing creationism or intelligent design into the public school system? Meanwhile, don't recent math and science score results place American students further and further down the list when compared to Japan, Taiwan, and so on? Does creationism in the school curriculum make better students or make you feel more reassured?

Second, how much religion do you plan to introduce into your public schools if creationism becomes standard curriculum? Anyone have problems with a teacher telling your 2nd graders that 2 + 2 = 4 because God allows it? Or a chemistry teacher explaining that water molecules are made up of 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom because it's part of Jesus's plan? Or that carbon 14 dating might be a way to determine the age of fossils except that the world is only 7000 years old according to the Bible and therefore carbon dating is irrelevent and false science? Maybe in certain history classes, the Spanish Inquisition begins to have a few upsides, some positive side effects, even a few heroes misunderstood by later socialist propaganda mongers, Torquemada as an example of a martyr to the cause too long overlooked. And who will write the curriculum for creationism-- the Moral Majority, the Conservative Right, Neocons? Do scientologists get a say?

I dunno. My perspective is, people seem too eager to invite something in without a clear understanding of how to make it leave should it begin to behave badly. And to be frank, some of those who claim moral Christian values like 36 apparently belong to the same branch of Christianity that my ex did, something like Jesus Lite in which you only have to choose 5 commandments out of 10 to follow and obey (fewer calories maybe) and of course the one against adultery is usually least likely to be followed and first to be dropped.

Finally, for those of you who yearn for that old time relgion, anyone belong to a faith that considers playing cards sinful and forbids dancing? (You don't even want to ask questions about alcohol or kissing or you're gonna burn for sure). My father's family did and I think that contributed to why he later became an atheist, and it's not like it was a cult or sect either, it was just another Protestant faith pretty much. Anyone okay with that, having your kid's second grade teacher call you a sinner because he told the class that you play solitaire on the computer? Just wondering.

it's less about actually MAKING the changes and more about simply being legally able to make the considerations

how many other countries have a CHOICE?

(less than you would think)

Hon...no....not THAT one-

;-D

WTF is Canada coming to??? No wonder most of our Canadian friends hate to back, and only do so to keep their health insurance active.

Polticians have no clue as to what I/D is.

People should be glad that others are watching the school system instead of waiting for American Idol at night. I would be much more worried about a program called "Windows and Mirrors" being taught K-12 in my schools if I had kids school age. There was a huge controversy in Boston some time back.

*****Or that carbon 14 dating might be a way to determine the age of fossils except that the world is only 7000 years old according to the Bible and therefore carbon dating is irrelevent and false science?****

This is one of the better bottom dealing tricks. Someone in the 17th Century picked the Good Book and did some calculating, having nothing beter to do and came up with this number. The Bible doesnt say this anywhere. So, being taught this, all animals whoever lived have to fall under this Math. Here I thought Math only breaks down at the Moment of Creation and all things come under Gods perview.

Dinosuars are now in the 7,000yr window and the new Creation Museum was opened this yr in the US. I odnt want to appear to be too critical of those of us who were taught the gobble de goop that isnt in the bible like the Rapture also but here comes a "Museum" and all its connoptations....or as they like to promote it..."A walk through History" Creationism has now become history along with good Math.

"Inside the Creation Museum

Adam and Eve frolic amid the dinosaurs in the new $27 million museum that demonstrates Darwin has nothing on the Book of Genesis.

May 31, 2007 | PETERSBURG, Ky -- The Creation Museum swung open its stegosaurus-guarded gates to the public Monday, and I have to say it's out of this world. For those of us raised in natural history Meccas like the American Museum in New York, the Smithsonian in Washington, or the Field in Chicago, the beautifully designed museum induces an eerie vertigo. All the familiar characters are here: T. rex, giant skeletons of triceratops and apatosaurus, a pterosaur spreading its wings above the crowd, live exhibits of birds, amphibians and reptiles, and the dripping, hooting and chirping soundtrack of the primeval forest. There are also a couple of unfamiliar faces, for a natural history museum, in the tan and finely muscled bodies of Adam and Eve.

At the ribbon cutting, Ken Ham, the rugged-faced CEO and president of Answers in Genesis, the nonprofit ministry that built the museum, tells an enthusiastic crowd that the Creation Museum will undo the damage done 82 years ago when Clarence Darrow put William Jennings Bryan on the stand in the famous Scopes trial in Dayton, Tenn. "It was the first time the Bible was ridiculed by the media in America, and that was a downward turning point for Christendom," Ham says. "We are going to undo all of that here at the Creation Museum. We are going to answer the questions Bryan wasn't prepared to, and show that belief in every word of the Bible can be defended by modern science."

HMMMMMM HOW!? without comiting a sin? Thou shall not lie, rememebr? "At the Creation exhibit, two young T. rexes peacefully watch fish swim in a placid pond. Two curly-haired robotic kids play nearby. In any other place, this would be the setup for a massacre. But this pre-Noah's-flood Jurassic Park is benign. The animals are vegetarians and plants don't have thorns. The fossil record, says the museum, confirms all of this."

AWWWW...

"Later Ham tells me that his skeptics, who cling to the "millions of years" theory, are wrong about when dinosaurs stalked the Earth. He cites a recent discovery of intact blood vessels in some T. rex tissue, suggesting that the finds are only thousands of years old, not 65 million, as paleontologists say. "They will try to come up with an explanation to keep the fossils old," says Ham, "but we don't need to. The explanation of their age is already right there in the Bible."

Really ...where? hidden in the chapter of numbers?

I myself live by Romans 12....if you got a gift use it. God didnt tech you to lie. Thessalonians also says to test all things. I would like for someone to speak and show me the bible talks about dinosaurs anmd men.

At the Museum you can take your child through "History" and "teach" them that...."For generations, paleontologists have shown that dinosaurs and humans never trod the Earth at the same time, that in fact with the exception of birds (modern-day dinosaurs), they never got within 60 million years of each other on the timeline of natural history. Not so, says Looy. "They all had to exist at the same time because they were all made on the same day.(Wheres the proof of this? only in Scripture) There may not be any fossil evidence showing dinosaurs and people in the same place at the same time. But it is clearly written that they were alive at the same time."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/05/31/creation_museum/

Heres the Museum doctrine. I wonder if these people ever talk about Middle Eastern people who indoctrinate their kids with false teachings.

http://www.creationmuseum.org/about

Government to pastor: Renounce your faith!

Now banned from expressing moral opposition to homosexuality

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Posted: June 09, 2008

10:00 pm Eastern

2008 WorldNetDaily

A Canadian human rights tribunal ordered a Christian pastor to renounce his faith and never again express moral opposition to homosexuality, according to a new report.

In a decision dated May 30 in the penalty phase of the quasi-judicial proceedings run by the Alberta Human Rights Tribunal, evangelical pastor Stephen Boisson was banned from expressing his biblical perspective of homosexuality and ordered to pay $5,000 for "damages for pain and suffering" as well as apologize to the activist who complained of being hurt.

According to a report from Pete Vere at the Catholic Exchange, the penalty could foreshadow the possible fate of the Rev. Alphonse de Valk, who also cited the biblical perspective on homosexuality in the nation's debate over same-sex "marriage" and now faces HRC charges.

Boisson wrote a letter to the editor of his local Red Deer, Alberta, newspaper in 2002 denouncing the advance of homosexual activism as "wicked" and stating: "Children as young as five and six years of age are being subjected to psychologically and physiologically damaging pro-homosexual literature and guidance in the public school system; all under the fraudulent guise of equal rights."

The activist, local teacher Darren Lund, filed a complaint, and the guilty verdict from Lori G. Andreachuk, a lawyer, was handed down Nov. 30, 2007...

And then, there are those of us who ARE on the PTA/PTO committee, yet when change is brought up, too many are afraid to changed what the government already decided for fear of being singled out or fear for their own children's future. It is a sad fact, but fear is what is running our country. We need more bold people in this country to make waves. I do my part, but when it comes to getting a group to rally for rights, it's a no win situation, especially here in NY. I had better luck when I was in the TX PTO, but because we didn't have so many government kissing people running the show.

*

FB's post is a perfect example of how many perceive Christianity, because of RELIGION. It's very sad that a few bad apples had to spoil the bunch, thus creating atheists.

*

There are extremist, in every group in this world. To categorize or assume all Christian as decribed above would be saying that all Muslims are the same, terrorists, and all white folks are KKKs and all Black folks are associated with Panthers and all Mexicans are wetbacks. This is where I see ignorance at it's best and it makes me angry.

*

In my belief, which is Christianity, I have never read in the Bible how we are to beat our children with belts, as many extremist Christians do. Nor have I ever read that we are to degrade our fellowman into feeling like he/she was lower than dirt for sinning... this reminds me of when Jesus met up with Mary Magdeline and told her he knew of her sins, but didn't make her feel like a slut, yet he sent her on her way and told her to sin no more. THAT'S the kind of Christian life I lead. LOVE is the key to all things, not fighting or hating, or degrading or knocking each other around, not assuming that everybody is evil because he or she is this color or that, or from this world or that, or this culture or that, or even this belief (or religion as some would call it) or that belief.

36, what can I say? Those darned Conservatives, huh? Not just the federal Conservatives party but now it looks like your example might even include the provincial Progressive Conservative party (probably a clue right there, that term 'progressive'. Highly suspect, don't you figure?) But what can you do? The provincial conservative party have been in power since 1972 and apparently there is no crime spree big enough that they could commit to get themselves un-elected. Hell, just this spring they swept into power for probably another four years. Darn, huh? Those dad-dratted conservatives. Huh. What a shame. Maybe if the Liberals ever got into power things might be different, but like THAT'S ever going to happen, right?

Otherwise, in your example, it looks like some guy broke the law and was punished. That's bizarre. Someone who was charged with something got punished-- what a concept. Are you offended because he was a cleric? Yeah, clerics never cause problems or break the law. Well, unless you figure in the Reverend Jim Bakker, or the Reverend Jimmy Swaggert, and then there's that whole nasty business with the Reverend Jim Jones....

Anyway, these CD's aren't going to pack themselves and this has gone WAY off-topic.

*

THAT'S the kind of Christian life I lead.

*

Because, I'm only human and I mess up and I'm not perfect, but I try my darn best to be the best person I can be.

*

Aahh, now I feel better

I'm glad my kid is out of School but her kids are still in.

To start, "God" has been in the schools since the concept of "School" has been in the U.S.- there were no terminations for mentioning the name of God, prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance was a given- and then we had lovely Madelyn Murray O'Hare to thank for screaming about prayer in public schools- that began the ball rolling- and on it has gone, until a government worker is not even allowed to say the name of God in any dealings whatsoever with the public- there are those fighting to have the "In God We Trust" taken off of our currency- and on and on it goes-

What I would like to say, is this:

At no other time in the history of our country, has murders, crimes, serial killers, and straight out disrespect for authority, be it parental or otherwise been as high as it is today- those of us who are older, think back on our parents generation: for the most part, good, upstanding, moral, the whole nine yards, the way that people SHOULD be- that tells me that SOMETHING has changed, I'm not saying keeping religion out of school is all of it, but I would suspect it has a whole lot to do with it- the moral fabric of this country is a mess, because it's an 'anything goes' society- there aren't very many parameters anymore-

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

and further down at the bottom...

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

And then, of course, just to top it all off, I will quote the bible...

"The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God"

*

Then, there will be the few that are raised in moral-based homes who will truly care about your welfare, but their voices won't matter because they're the minority of the group.

*

Yes, I would say that's lucky alright and a very good thing. Let's hope some people won't be eating crow someday when they find themselves eating cat food just to survive.

*

Then, there will be the few that are raised in moral-based homes who will truly care about your welfare, but their voices won't matter because they're the minority of the group.

*

Yes, I would say that's lucky alright and a very good thing. Let's hope some people won't be eating crow someday when they find themselves eating cat food just to survive.

Faith is sometihng you cant take out and show on a chemistry board. It cant be shown in biology.

The framers were believers in a Divine Creator, some were mere Deists....some atheists. They didnt muck it up with hitching the govt to any particular religion, in fact they said you cant hitch religion and govt together. In the case of schools and what is taught, its so clouded right now. So confusing because for one thing, lets face it how many people understand biology at the fundamnetal level?

Soem people are willing to roll with the idea that life changes over time at the small end or the Micro scale of evo but its at the Macro end that they halt. Its terribly hard to take hold of any notion that all nature is connected and all metabolisms are inter linked somehow. For example, some think that early life forms such as the ones that rose with photosyntetis carry alot of minerals like iron and that this MIGHT BE not for sure that it might be why trace elements of Iron and all the other elements we carry are so important. This idea is in line with how some of us believe God brought life forth. Through a process that we are Just Now understanding...We dont need a light show...

No more illionists...look here and turn back to find life and say....hey wow....all life arrived yesterday....then tell kids that noah carried this very life...except those ducks ....stubborn ducks who wouldnt board and said why? I float anyway? Hmmmm ....didnt think of that before...so Noah with all the life..T-rex...Stegasuarus...Wilma and Fred fLintstone all boarded the Ark.

After all those dinos were stowed away(how ridicules)Fedex delivered the koala bears and kangaroos..and South America shipped in all those cockatiels ... and gators..and off we go to the Top of the world. After the flood, just exactly how do we teach our kids that Noah...distributed all those animals back to where they came from?

Remember, we cant say they evolved from another species...oh wait...we're Christians, Good intended ones at that, we can lie for a better cause...so lets include evolution after the flood. Save Noah the trip of delivering all the animals back to where they came from.

.

Not exactly..I have Grand daughters. Dammit Verita...I forgot to get to my myspace page to get a pic of them on board ill email it to you...

look everyone I know its been fun and enjoyable to yank my chain or agree or disagree with me. I am moving in about 3 weeks or sooner, dont know. And I will have to break this off. When I'll get back online I dont know. I'm sure to be busy getting used to a new spot unless the roof inspector fails this roof here in which case we are staying. I think, I dont really know for sure....lol.

I'd just like to say in the event when I leave, I am sure to at least log on, its been fun for the last oh so many yrs. Im going to try to get to Rochester for sure to see some Canadien Friends and make new ones. I wont access the net from a hardline anymore. I will have to go wifi, which means purchasing new equipment and its not on my priority list. I might hit the net from the local library for sure.

just wanted to get that in. Im retiring for the night. Verita...Im going hit an email to you wit a poic of my g-kids.I dont put pics on this place for obvious reasons. Too many strange posts for my liking.

Quite a few of the founding fathers were part of a group called the Freemasons. Now, for those completely unfamiliar - if you have seen the Shriners with the the neat little cars, or motorcycles in parades, they are one section of the Freemasons.

One of the entrance requirements for the Freemasons - is you must believe in a *monotheistic being' Note, they don't say "God" or "Allah" or "Yaweh" Any of the three, and several other answers are acceptable - but all must believe in a "Supreme Architect of the Universe"

So, in our founding documents, such as the Declaration of Independence - you will find references as Mostie pointed out to "Divine Providence" which is, incidentally, a term used in Masonic writings. I believe that the basic tenant of Freemasonry - that the country be formed with a belief in such a concept of a "God" - be that whatever being you subscribe to under your individual religion - was envisioned by the founding fathers.

I believe they wanted it to be a Nation "Under God" with God being a somewhat generic term, not necessarily the Christian God. For those still reading - I believe they wanted a Nation that ideally, if you pledged your service, or made an oath as the Freemasons do - you would pledge that to whatever being you held sacred. And the unifying bond would not be the specific religion you chose, but rather the pledge you make, which under any of the common, non-Satanic type religions would be equally binding to your future.

Americans, like myself, are dumbfounded by Canadian restrictions on religion and Canadian laws against free speech. Bear in mind that we still have free speech here, but only because we threw off the abusive yoke of British rule. And we did so with privately owned firearms, which is why we also cherish our RIGHT to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. A "right" that even one of our good friends, a retired Canadian police officer, doesn't have now that he's retired.

The more recent rulers of Canada (Prime Minister) have been mostly socialists (except for Harper), not conservatives. At least not conservatives as we know them in the USA.

A number of them were Freemasons. Even the dollar bill carries a lot of the esoteric symbology that is often associated with their studies.

36's conduct here, as she openly, conciously and actively violates the 7th Commandment (Thou shalt not commit adultery) is evidence of that.

Take away the TV, the violent lyrics, the video games if you want to start to make a dent (video parlors used to be the number one recuiting ground for armed services). Develop more social equality in life ("we believe that all men are created equal".)

Bear in mind that Freemasonry today is radically different from what it was 200+ years ago. As is the Unitarian Church. This is the reason extensive research is required to be able to understand the past correctly.

As for the 10 Commandments, everyone has sinned and fallen short of the Lord. But the Commandments do give us the Christian foundation upon which we SHOULD build our nation and our lives. Not that we don't all fall from grace from time to time, but at least we know what perfection is. Which those that rely only on a voice within can never have.

As for the history of the Freemasons, trust me - I am quite a bit more knowledgeable of their history than many - including you. Perhaps you should engage some of that 'extensive research' in your own personal life.

F*kkken Right Cimm!!! good one!!! from someone PREACHING to inject more religion into schools will increacse morality, check out 36 morality...she's a racist for one.

QH, the book Faith of Our Fathers is online and can be read here

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=QxxYpdwslCYC&dq=what+the+founders+believed&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=vMqBXWqBhy&sig=QndwBTjdaCtCYio2OBx9GzB6u6A&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

I know that Franklin embraced all religions, had a pew in his Church designated but theres little evidenced he attended Church. A hypocrite? Not likely. He also gave to every demonination. Just about every Church in Philly that was built had a donation from Franklin including Jewish Synagagues.

You can not compel somesome to embrace your religion or you otherwise will do damge to your relgion they said. Proof of this is evidence in todays debtes over religion in school. Look at the beating Creation is taking. I would not want my poersonal beliefs coming under a microscope like Creation is coming. This is the problem with this idea.

Suppose a Bhuddist ideology were taught as a science in school how could that be quantified. It would be torn to shreds as would Confusionism, Daoism and every other supernatural idea.

What makes the one of Judeao-Chistian thinking thinks its immune. The Framers were more or less Deists. Jefferson was no Bible thunping Christian. In fact the closest he came to believing was acknowledging a Power or a Creator and thats it. Of course, during Campaign season he went to Church , just like a politician would to get votes.

Try to find Washingtons personal beliefs. Providence is as close as youll get to it. Nothing more.

Thomas Paine was an atheist. Its funny how he and other atheist tolerated the believers at that time and yet the beleivers of this time want to reject the atheists of this day.

Yes, I agree and I also say that if God exists and I believe he does , then God IS TRUTH and we should seek the truth in life and tell the truth to our kids. In School, we should explain the world as we find it in a format that can be tested rigorously over and over again and say to them THIS is How Life works, This is HOW you cure your sickness. So when We leave you, when we die, you will have MORE and not less....so you wont have to return to the dark ages of science.

And we can sit down with them in our home and in our Churches and open the Bible and talk about GOD and say to them That GOD is a Mystery! He Created the Universe and the Earth, he brought life forth, just exactly how.....well, we arent EXACTLY sure....we think we know...but lets talk about your spiritual life in THIS BOOK-the Bible, and leave the other question of how things works for science class. JMO

Oh, and thanks for making my day by referring to ex-Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative party Brian Mulroney a "socialist". You're funny, probably funnier than you're willing to give yourself credit for. And again we're off-topic.

The Bible actually teaches a spherical shape for the earth. In Isaiah 40:22 God is said to sit above the circle of the earth

The Greeks figured out that the Earth was round and Yet Catholic teachings and being afraid of the horizon kept men from seeking more for hundreds of yrs.

All progress and new worlds were brought about by questioning the status qou as it were. The Churuch still survives as does the bible even after all these yrs that its been shown to have harbored ill ideas. I dont see where the big threat is.

People have asked the question why are we here, What does life mean? How did this all come about? This is the birthplace of spiritaul wonderment. Its not likely to go away any time soon.

I liked Carlin but cringed everytime his act turned towards the heavens.

29 Anglicans, 18 Calvinists, two Methodists, two Lutherns, two Roman Catholics, one lapsed Quaker, and one "Diest", Dr. Franklin, who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed money to all denominations.

Only three were not members of established Christian churches.

================================================================

Freedom Socialist Vol. 27, No. 2 April-May 2006

Say it ain't so! Or, the story of why the Conservatives won the election in Canada

by Megan Cornish

Conservative winner Stephen Harper (at left), shown here with Royal Mounted Police Commissioner Guiliano Zaccardelli in Ottawa on January 31, promised new law-and-order measures including adult sentencing for juveniles as young as 14 and an increase in police forces.

Canada's parliamentary elections on January 23 put the Conservative Party and its markedly rightwing leader Stephen Harper in power, ending a 12-year stretch by the Liberal Party.

"It's spooky," Toronto activist David Noble, an immigrant from the U.S. 15 years ago, told the FS. "But it doesn't mean this is 'Harper-land.' The Conservatives won not because people wanted them, but because they were fed up with the Liberals."

New Canadian PM a Bush clone. The Conservative Party is only three years old, a merger of two other parties. According to The Globe and Mail, Harper is "the most conservative figure to be elected prime minister in living memory."

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Freemasonry explicitly and openly states that it is neither a religion nor a substitute for one. "There is no separate Masonic God", nor a separate proper name for a deity in any branch of Freemasonry...

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And did anywhere in my post did I declare Freemasonry was a religion? Again, read the post and attempt some rudimentary comprehension.

I suppose next you will tell us that you were made a female Freemason by the Grand Master of the United States, without having to fulfill any of the normal requirements.

He just liked you at a naked party in a camper.

The only Freemasons I know anything about were the Vigilantes of Montana.

omg.....

you are the cumbest dunt I've ever run across

The short simple anmswer is because all those men where F/M. They crafted a document that used the woed Creator but made sure that The word God was not part of it. Originally that phrase ...Endowed? had god in it but was changed. The Constitution holds ALL of their SPiritual fraternal beliefs in it without including or excluding anyone elses. The only flaw they had was when you come down to rights. Blacks and Women really. It would seem they didnt view them to be endowed by the same creator or, from the same batch of Clay in Genesis. That is if you want to try to inject it into the Constitutional question, would you?

So , if they were from ALL those Good Christian Churches, why did they leave them out?

Additonally, since we are talking about mixing religion and govt....how do you feel about Religion getting mixed up in the biz of electing Govt. Look at the Two most notable Preachers from Chicago. Rev Wright and The Catholic Priest who mocked Hillary and was suspended by the Church. See, I dont like and dont think Religion has a place nor a voice in Govt at all!!!!

Do you think the framers ever intended any faith to have such an influence in govt? I dont think you do , reading you other political rhetoric, so you cant have it both ways.

In my opinion their Tax Ememption should be pulled just as soon as it can be shown that these Churches are favoring any candidate by name from the pulpit. Speaking to the issues of the day is one thing but a politcal race should be off limits but again, thats just my opinion.

xxxxxx

Biff, I know that joke about the Platypus He was funny...his last good subject I liked was suicide...he said all this fascination about it...Suicide had to be way down on his to do list. then he went on some long tirade that was too funny. Religious fanatics like the Halle boppers, all had Nike(for the runner from Marathon I think) sneakers on, five dollars in quarters and killed themselves as the Halle Bopp comet approached hoping to catch ride I suppose. What the quarters were for? Parking or intersteller Slot machines I hope. God rest their souls. So now theyre running through the Universe.

Dont worry about going off topic in a fourm I opened as long as it doesnt degrade into one of those out and out infamous hate forums that mingles is well known for. Intelligent rhetoric is always welcome to read Biff. I always read your stuff. Arent you afraid youre going to lose your fan base with these posts though Biff

Isnt it hard to understand when looking at the evo tree how modern society can stand on a Creation myth story of all things created at once when the tree rises up and through the primate family until it tops at the Bonoboos a primate with opposing thumbs and DNA that is 99.9% the same as a human. I would think that Man would be so special he might be so diferent form ll the rest.! Thats not even counting the geologic record or botanical one.

what about those who take a plant of one group and turn out hybrids? If evolution isnt possible, how is this possible?

At some point in the Evolution of man through Homo-Erectus to Modern day man Consiouness rises, how is not clear will likely NEVER EVER, and I mean EVER be known, an act of god I suppose.....and man becomes a problem solving and a spiritual being, aware of his creation and forever seeks his maker. Consiousness is something man has tried over and over to explain and hasnt come really close. We know how it appears but dont know where it comes from deep in our brains. It does give us the edge on the planet to survive and build all sorts of models and habitats for war and peace. No other animal 'seems' to have it. At least they havent told us they do. We talk to them however. Its like Man has been ordained with something really special, something unexplainable.

This is pretty much what makes sense for me. Even this rejectd by evolution/atheist....they ask well, when did god jump into the mix? They ask how can I quantify a soul?

I dont have to. I believe! and Thats enough! I remind them that science is not making any statement to the origins of life....REMEMBER?! all we are doing is observing how life works.

This is at the core of the debate of the issue I think. For me at least. For others, its something else im sure as evidenced by the many posts.

"Most Americans say they are familiar with creationism and evolution, but there is some confusion about the terms' meaning. In an August 2005 Gallup poll, 58% of the public said that creationism was definitely or probably true as an explanation for the origin and development of life, but 55% also said this about evolution. Since creationism and evolution are incompatible as explanations, some portion of the public is clearly confused about the meaning of the terms."

http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=118

"The term "intelligent design" is still unknown to much of the public. In the August 2005 Gallup survey, 52% said they were either "not too familiar" or "not at all familiar" with the phrase. By comparison, only 17% and 24% were not familiar with "evolution" and "creationism," respectively. Given the low level of public recognition of the term, "intelligent design" is rarely mentioned in polling on the origins of life."

The folks who coined the words I/D knew that they had a very enigneering type quality that was going to sell to the public. something that seemed non threatening but, when you dig into the background and find it comes from the Discovery Institute and Dr Behe and Dembsky and the Wedge Strategists you know its an aweful ploy to get religion back into school and not a science at all. In fact, its insidious in nature. Lying to Fed Judges about the origins of their textbooks, using copy machines of others works that were already deemed unfit for schools as creationism and tossed in previous court actions. Then, Taking this Townspeople for a ride by inserting it in their schools and taking over one million dollars in legal fees. Needless to say, there was no appeal. How can we trust these people to teach the origins of life when thewy cant trusted to declare the origins of the textbooks? 2 of them lied to the judge and after the battle the same federal judge got death threats from these religious people.

Now its resurfaced as "Strength asnd weakness"

Scorp, I have a fan base? Truth is, I can't pretend to be something I'm not and I am not a member of any kind of right-wing Moral Majority and never was. I have no problems with people who hold religious beliefs and live Christian lifestyles-- I wish a lot more people would find religion. I remember pledging allegiance to the flag every morning in school and while I don't recall ever reciting the Lord's Prayer, I got a little Gideon's Bible one day while attending public school that I still own. Regarding introducing religion into schools, I said my piece but it seems to be an American topic here with many references to the US constitution and Supreme Court rulings. Regarding religious hypocrites, eventually I may begin to pity 36 and ignore her like any other kind of loon I encounter in a large city-- hell, for all I know, she's a fake and she just says this crazy stuff to rattle cages, who knows? Anyway, good topic, and certainly lively.

Alas - it seems you are to moronic for even that simplistic of an idea. You know, I just was working in an agility training class with my dog. He gets the points faster than you do. And he doesn't even claim to be a mensa-mutt.

And nor should you be Biff. I had no trouble reading through your posts and seeing you value the same things as we do. I happen to think most people live by some philosophy thats connected to something greater them themselves Biff. You seem to express that idea here to me. I admire it really. I think the creation story is a beautiful story myself, told in the right context. lol, that Gideon...he got around didnt he?

I have my own Grand daughter who is just at an age where she is going to make some serious decisions..I ask questions but I dont impress God on her other then to say I BELIEVE. Ill let her ask the questions. This is also part of what I believe that maybe gets lost in all of this. I also think that you cant give kids all the answers to questions they dont ask. Somewhere in Greek philosophy, which BTW I dont like to keep referencing but its important to know that western culture is based on Greek Philosophy is that once the right question is asked the right answer will be found. I wont go any deeper than that, if its not clear what I am driving at, then I failed to convey my point terribly.

Maybe this quote from an unknown might help..."BUT once moved through, the space can be filled with light, and in this process, more unlocks within" I think Children are filled with Gods love and divine curiosity Biff. I dont why we're so obsessed to fill it with stuff that isnt EXACTLY true and tell them its Binding for life. Let them move to ask the question instead of indoctrinating them.

I was kidding about the fan base of course. I know this was not a topic that would go over big but as you can see by the numbers, most people in general dont have clear definitions of what Creationism and evolution are sometimes.

I just wanted to bring something to light, thats all and not stir up or break friendships here. We're not going to collapse over the issue I'm sure. Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and people will take to heart that school time is valuable time, out of our view. What goes on there needs to be watched closely. From the time school boards decide on what is taught to the time kids get to class.

Our scores might going down in some areas but I see our Space Program is still up and running. We just put another machine on Mars, something no other Country has done successfully. I would say thats pretty Dam good math skills myself. Its not Easy Biff to aim at as planet spinning out in space and hit it with a who-gee-whatz-it ya know. We also have a probe on an Asteroid, another mathematical marvel.

My own feeling is that we could have been paying attention more closely to what Corporate America has been doing instead of fretting over religion. Globalization of the worlds economy isnt going to be good for us. In Fact...it reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode "to serve man"

You fools, Its a cookbook!!!! America has been served up, to the world as a sacrifice.

Problem is, it takes a great deal of study to be able to understand that evolution is really an athiest quasi-religion and not Science at all. The "science" part is a lie, a conjob.

This is exactly what James Madison warned against. Had the Righteous right not been so pushy into the school system with their dogma, Christian views wouldnt come under so much scrunity. We might still have our Xmas in schools like before, very peacefully. We ackowledged passover in schools also. The simple thing was to just acknowledge the season as Xmas winter season FIRST!!!! Get the jump on the lawsuit and maybe cut them off. I dunno....hehe....He warned that if you intermingle your religon with govt youll do harm to your own. I think its a mistake to imply that the framers intended this country to be run as a Christian nation. They certainly thought it was a Blessed one under God and had reservations about naming a particular religion to hold sway. That was clear.

How does Christian teaching rub people wrong in school? For one, we or they cant make up our minds to the age of the Earth..."For decades, Christians have engaged in the old Earth vs. young Earth debate with the scientific community and even among ourselves. The typical Christian school of thought insist that since the Bible states that the Earth was created in six days, that it must mean six literal 24-hour days because the Bible is inerrant and cannot possibly be wrong on this point. The Scientific and some Christian apologists take the view that the physical evidence of science i.e., geology, cosmology, astrology, zoology, and biology, show undeniable evidence that the Earth and the Universe is approximately 4.5 Billion years old. The old earth Christians state that God created the earth in six distinct periods of time, but each period was incredibly long and each had its unique purpose as supported by the story told in Genesis. I will not discuss the Evolutionist view here, but needless to say it favors an old Earth. paradigm. Among Christians, this debate is commonly referred to as Christian Apologetics. (I hate the term apologetics. It makes it seems as if we Christians need to apologize for our beliefs). The two camps, however, even differ on the details of how long ago God created man. The scientific view holds that it may have been as long as 49,000 years ago, and of course the staunch fundamentalist view is that it could not possibly have been more than 6,000 7,000 years ago. Dr, Gerald L. Schroeder, Ph.D. states in his book Genesis and the Beginning Although science and theology offer divergent opinions on many aspects of our world, the difference in their statements of the age of the universe is particularly bothersome because it is a proven difference. The age of the universe has been measured using a variety of independent technological systems, including radio-active dating, Doppler shifts in starlight, and the isotropic 3 above zero radiation background. The methods of these studies are totally unrelated. Therefore, an error that might have occurred in one would not appear in the others. Yet data taken from these diverse studies present a strong scientifically consistent argument for a very old Earth and an even older universe.http://kenh1957.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/genesis-facts-and-fictions-old-earth-vs-young-earth/

So the first thing is....they have to unravel the myth that the world is NOT 7,000y/o as they have been teaching.

What did they come up with? Well, since we know things are light yrs away and you cant travel faster than the speed of light they conjur a new myth ....to replace a myth.

"An article written by Dan Vergano for USA Today in May of 2006 titled Big Bang Unfolded in the Blink of an Eye, announced the discovery that the universe expanded billions of light years away from the initial point of origin in a mere trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. Einsteins General Theory of Relativity suggests that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, yet evidence now suggest that all matter in the universe not only exceeded the speed of light, but did so by a billion times or more." <-----Bullsh*t never happened.

See what I mean about religion in schools...they will be willing to make up any kind of Bullsh*t lie to keep it in line with what THEY believe instead of what the evidence shows. Great job of keeping the commandments but not fit for kids ears. Lies....bold face lies.

Why dont they say God did this all in 7 days and installed 3 billion yrs of intersteller history as an afterthought. Coz he figured we should have something to do with our time. He is all powerful and can do what he wants, no one would question him on that?

XXXXXXX

36...youre amusing but you really dont know what evolution is let alone call it a quasi-religion. It has the backing of hundreds of fields of study, independant of biology BTW. It's more fact then theory at this point but its willing to adjust as more data comes in. for one, you have no clear understanding I'm sure to what the Fossil record for one even shows. See, there is a snapshot of this so called theory. Those so called theoretical transitional fossils of species are popping up all the time. More and more. I posted somewhere in there forums all the homonids we have. Would you like to see the list from "Lucy" the smallest to modern day man?

what about "D2700, Homo georgicus

Discovered in 2001 at Dmanisi in Georgia (in the ex-USSR). Estimated age is 1.8 million years. D2700 consisted of a mostly complete skull in exceptionally good condition, including a lower jaw (D2735) found about a meter away and thought to belong to the same individual (Vekua et al. 2002, Balter and Gibbons 2002). At around 600 cc, this is the smallest and most primitive hominid skull ever discovered outside of Africa (or, at least, was until recently. Homo floresiensis is smaller)

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/d2700.html

or any one of the socres of links leading to other proofs of evolution? OR,

"Sahelanthropus tchadensis

Ardipithecus ramidus

Australopithecus anamensis

Australopithecus afarensis

Kenyanthropus platyops

Australopithecus africanus

Australopithecus garhi

Australopithecus aethiopicus

Australopithecus robustus Australopithecus boisei

Homo habilis

Homo georgicus

Homo erectus

Homo ergaster

Homo antecessor

Homo heidelbergensis

Homo neanderthalensis

Homo floresiensis

Homo sapiens

How many of these did you NOT study up on before you made these remarks? each one has a habitat and archeaological dig with as much as could be salvaged including diets and tools, what ever. Bone structure is put back together....do you know what a fully articulated fossil is?

I'm surprised you havent mentioned Piltdown Man yet? havent got to that site yet? Well when you do have a good laugh

Franken: The Canadian "Conservative Party", which is similar to the USA Republican Party, was established only 5 years ago. None of the Prime Ministers you mentioned except Harper were Conservatives.

What you are apparently confused about is the old Progressive Conservative Party, that is similar to the USA Democratic Party.

The Liberal Party, which is a socialist/communist party, is the 3rd Canadian political party.

So please stop referring to Progressives as Conservatives. They were not, and you should know that.

36 - only you are dumb enough to make that assumption. Everyone else reading the post would probably figure out I probably know more than average.

She was your Sister I bet...naked and ready to spread them for the next homo erectus in line and just as old too...hehe. Lucy wasnt a monkey either.

BTW sounds to me as if QH is capable of shaking hands in a way that only a Mason can. I am not one but I know that no member would declare themselves one openly. It doesnt take a Rocket scientist to read between the lines either.

36...want some more proof of evolution in terms that only a person like yourself can understand? At the micro-end of politcs these days is the net. There is Senator Obamas Campaign raking millions of Dollars, giving voice and access to alot of people who think they are effecting politics. At the Macro end is the White House. In January, if hes sworn in, you can think as I might imagine , oh no, a Nigro in White House....a new species really is arrived in politics. I'm sure you might enjoy more blatant vulgar terms, I just cant type them out. That is how evolution works. from the micro to the macro end but over long perios of time not short periods. You'll never find new species as you people always love to ask for...life is always in transition. Having said that the dog is one where we see Evolution working.

All dogs descend from the wolf in a short 10,000 yr period. The DNA typing prove it. Its strange how this animal is so friendly and intelligent that it seems to have an emotional attachment to our families. You should read up on this for a better understanding of how it ame about. In fact, Zoologists are now coaxing these same changes in Foxes.

National Geographics homepage has a good thing titled "the rise of the dog" on it.

But yet again, you spin the facts. The Conservative party is what happened when the Reform and the Progressive Conservative parties merge-- some of the seated MP's are former Progressive Conservatives, just like Kim Campbell and Brian Mulroney were and were elected to Parliament as Progressive Conservatives. And a rose by any other name is still a small-c conservative right wing party who wouldn't say no to a dalliance or two with the Religious Right.

Oh, and Canada's third party historically has been the New Democrats. Other parties included the Creditistes (Social Credit), Rhinoceros party, Green party, and even the Communist party fielded a few candidates every so often. If you think the Conservatives \ Progressive Conservatives were equivalent to your Democrats, your sources are apparently leaflets from the John Birch Society or old Ku Klux Klan pamphlets. I just can't see your President Reagan coming up here to hobnob with Brian Mulroney if he was a US Democrat equivalent, but I'm enjoying the spectacle of someone who's probably never even set foot in Canada explaining Canada's political system to a Canadian. There are no checks and balances on the size of your ego, are there? You read a few Wikipedia references and you're an expert on whatever is the current subject. You belong to Mensa, ergo whatever you say has instant credibility.

Spin away, 36. Spin away.

Why are you " wrestling with a pig? "

it's useless

and you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it

Anyway....I have some input....they never give up only change from on costume to another.

"Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy

By LAURA BEIL

Published: June 4, 2008

DALLAS Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to creation science, which became intelligent design, which in 2005 was banned from the public school curriculum in Pennsylvania by a federal judge.

Now a battle looms in Texas over science textbooks that teach evolution, and the wrestle for control seizes on three words. None of them are creationism or intelligent design or even creator.

The words are strengths and weaknesses.

Starting this summer, the state education board will determine the curriculum for the next decade and decide whether the strengths and weaknesses of evolution should be taught. The benign-sounding phrase, some argue, is a reasonable effort at balance. But critics say it is a new strategy taking shape across the nation to undermine the teaching of evolution, a way for students to hear religious objections under the heading of scientific discourse.

Already, legislators in a half-dozen states Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri and South Carolina have tried to require that classrooms be open to views about the scientific strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian theory, according to a petition from the Discovery Institute, the Seattle-based strategic center of the intelligent design movement.

(LIKE I SAID THE DISCO INSTITUTE AGAIN BEHE AND DEMBSKY)

The strengths and weaknesses language was slipped into the curriculum standards in Texas to appease creationists when the State Board of Education first mandated the teaching of evolution in the late 1980s. It has had little effect because evolution skeptics have not had enough power on the education board to win the argument that textbooks do not adequately cover the weaknesses of evolution.

Yet even as courts steadily prohibited the outright teaching of creationism and intelligent design, creationists on the Texas board grew to a near majority. Seven of 15 members subscribe to the notion of intelligent design, and they have the blessings of Gov. Rick Perry, a Republican....."

Barf...I would post more but its obnoxious...could be that its coming to a school near you.

Oh Wait.....one last qoute...one last copy and paste if I may...

"Dr. McLeroy, the board chairman, sees the debate as being between two systems of science.

Youve got a creationist system and a naturalist system, he said."

A clear slap in the face to three federal court decisions regarding this so called "Creation Science" system...the audacity to say they are going to teach this when they know its been refuted and defined as religion.

No respect for law...no respect for the constitution ...just another lawsuit and maybe another million dollars of treasury.

They were tossed in Dover and what do they do? Come back as another wolf in sheeps clothing.

I think they ought to let them teach this Sh*t in schools and on Sunday, Science teachers can go down to their Churches for a half hour and teach evolution as an alternate religion too. See how that goes over.

By the way, name all the countries headed by blacks that aren't 3rd world basket cases?

De-evolution...I see you prescribe to the chimp theory only when it suits you...huh? Youre a fine example for the kids and if you are product of Creationism in schools...well, this case has been long closed dont you think?

***By the way, name all the countries headed by blacks that aren't 3rd world basket cases?***

On the other paw, which Western Country can say it has elected an African Descendant to its highest office? England? France? Canada? Australia? Germany? Denmark? none I can think of and here we are, the worlds punching bag for being racists and we might elect a Black or half black man to the White House. I think that is something positive in itself when you think about it.

=========================================================================

Yes, it's "positive", positively stupid. And it's instructive to note that even France isn't that F'd Up!

The track record of black presidents/dictators isn't reife with mass murders and corruption for nothing you know. Those leaders earned their reputations the hard way, by murdering their enemies and bankrupting their countries. And, with regard to black muslim leaders, everyone that isn't a muslim is the enemy.

If you Dat interested in muslims and obama put a head scarf on and go to one of his rallies and report back pronto...just not here! Kay?

I have a question for you, Scorp...why do you suppose religion is based on "faith," and not history books? Do you really mankind is meant to understand everything, to be able to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt, and come up with an equation or set of circumstances that can predict when something will happen, or why it happened, exactly when and how? Hell, we still don't get warnings when tornadoes come, and even when we DO, it's always right before they hit. If millions of dollars and thousands of years can't come up with an answer for a wind tunnel in a 5 square mile area, what makes you think we can come up with a formula for a creation of the entire earth, much less the atmosphere and everything in it?

Religion isn't being taught in "science" class...it is its own subject. And unlike Imsexy5 who thinks Christianity is the only religion that should be taught, I'm not saying that...I just think it has its place right alongside all the others. But if the majority of people in a region subscribe to one particular faith, what's wrong with it having a little more text in the books, or a pledge of allegiance with God's name in it? Do you really think that in India the textbooks speak of Christianity as they do of Hinduism? Or that in Tibet they have statues of Christ outside the schools rather than a Buddha? When did it become law that a country must sacrifice it's fundamental beliefs or practices for the objections of a few?

I still haven't seen any kind of credible post about exactly how it is that religion harms anyone in a school. I'm still waiting. We teach economics, and some kids grow up and swindle people, we teach chemisty, and some grow up and build pipe bombs. We teach history, and some kids decide they want to shave their heads and put swastikas on their arms. But Religion, THAT'S the problem with our schools??

I don't believe that. I think it's more a society that's gotten more and more obsessed with easy fixes, easy answers, black and white scenarios, and getting what they want when they want it. Religion won't give them that.

Maybe it's not meant to be ever proven.

I have a question for you, Scorp...why do you suppose religion is based on "faith," and not history books? Do you really mankind is meant to understand everything, to be able to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt, and come up with an equation or set of circumstances that can predict when something will happen, or why it happened, exactly when and how?******

I Think if you read my posts thoroughly Capt'n you would see I dont think we are entitled to know everything, no!!, on the other claw....God did say he was making us in his image did he not? And that it was the simple act in a garden that he told us NOT to do that lead to our demise. And then we lied to him about that from MY reading(and understanding) the Good Book. Then, comes the 10 Commandments. Thou Shall Not Lie and Have No God before him correct? As I statred before. If God exists, and I believe he does, that is part of my faith, then God is TRUTH and there is no reason why science and God can not converge and commune together. I would post the Vatican Council ideas on this but then if youre not a Catholic that would be meaningless to you perhaps.

See, I have my l beliefs in all of this too Rick. Catholics these days are instructed by JP-2 when he was around to explore Evolution(as a science) as it isnt in conflict with Genesis(as Creation). We Catholics have learned from our past mistakes of holding back the fields of science. Galileo for one. 500 yrs after his works and death we apologized for his treatment. JP-2 statements were not enough for atheists like Richard Dawkins however, Captain. He is a staunch non believer and makes the case for the God Delusion.

Where some people get confused is that so so many people immediately toss the Theory of Evolution and everyone who say they believe that it is real, in with atheism. Once you do this you cloud the discussion because it just isnt so.

I'm going to go find just which faiths and which sciences acknowledge the T of E. Its remarkable. On the other hand those who reject it are left in the company of people like Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart and that bunch. I wouldnt say youre one of them that wouldnt be fair but, when you look around that is your company in this argument with regards to schools and the Creation story and holding fast to the myth of a 7,00 Yr old Earth. BTW do you personally believe, if you dont mind disclosing this, did man EVER walk with dinosuars?

Faith and Political views are not the same...and you were correct previously...pathology is not necessarily the whole argument but evolutionary biology, when you examine it is, and does, make the case for Evolution.

I will go and find a case where the man who developed the cocktail to boost the immune system of HIV infected people using Evo Bio and if it doesnt open some eyes then I dont if there is a case that will. Its one of the most fantasitc finds I 've sen. From the Black Black of Europe a Scientist took record of those who survived. Why? Well if you recall hemophiliacs were infected by the blood supply with HIV. so this guy , who had no drug use, no homo sexual lifestyle...just a hemophiliac had to make a choice to either keep taking infected blood supplies or run the risk of bleeding out. He choose the former. He was surviving and they didnt know why? Astonished they started to trace his family history and here they found his ancestors were from England and the area of the Black Death times. So, after doing alot of research they found that ancestors in todays society among us who have both parents who carry this immune called DELTA-32 GENE <----thats worth googling BTW was the begining of developing a cocktail and an inside look at how genetics work. The upshot is that out of this is the promise of mimicing Delta-32 for all of us in the future if a new Black Death plague should arrive.

I showed the one case with the girls liver transplant.

Captian ;"I'm not saying that...I just think it has its place right alongside all the others"

Why would you want this? I dont want my religion taught alongside of Greek demigods, Roman Gods of the past...Egyptian Sun God Ra. These are the Gods that men worshiped and the society from which we come and the origins of Christianity.

Sure, lets teach religion as if its dead.?Alongside dead relgious ideas? Nah, I rather not. Christ is ALIVE!!!Or how can any Believing Christian present their faith alongside another and say well, there are OTHER ways to be faithful BUT only when you come to Christ John 3:16 will you come to heaven....how will we present this? as if its empty words? or Alive? Evangelical?Thats coercive. I just dont know how you take a strile look at religion. If you can show me Ill read it.

As far as a simple school prayer lasting all of 2 minutes of the beginning of every morning...I have no problem with that. The Courts tossed this for the same grounds and to be honest....though I say why?....I have to also say that asking to bring a two minute prayer back in with such fervor without addressing so many other social issues of the day in our society sounds a bit like throwing a Hail Mary to me.

Rick , you see whats going on in society by the fact of what you cite in your posts.

****I still haven't seen any kind of credible post about exactly how it is that religion harms anyone in a school. I'm still waiting***

Lol...ok wsnt it you who mentioned denial so many times...hehe...what about the Cross burning in the flesh teaching? If that were your child, would you be asking the smae question with such Sarcasm? Your child goes to school and the teacher impresses the cross in his arm...youre ok with this and can still ask the same question? what about a teacher who might hit a child and cite the bible "spare the rod and spoil the child" or whatever that twisted scripture says.

Cimm has qouted Jeffersons remarks on the subject. I personally like Madison myself. So what we have in essence is Religion and Govt colliding. Not to mention your opinion and mine as someone mentioned in a well thought post, as much as I might not to admit that.

hehe not at all really...I thought I was more of a bigot in that post than a racist I think the power of having the delete bottom is going to my head. It was said in jest I thionk you know that.

okay.....

"James Madison on Separation of Church and State

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All quotation taken from Robert S. Alley, ed., James Madision on Religious Liberty, pp. 37-94.

James Madison (1751-1836) is popularly known as the "Father of the Constitution." More than any other framer he is responsible for the content and form of the First Amendment. His understanding of federalism is the theoretical basis of our Constitution.

Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).

I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others. (Letter Rev. Jasper Adams, Spring 1832).

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Theres alot more on the subject. I think he makes the case very well....the more you mix your religion in with govt the more damage you do to it.

Everyone didnt take heed tothis all at once. Look, back when I used to visit New England in summer they had blue laws ....bars closed at a "decent" hour on Saturday night to ensure peole went to Church on Sunday.

You want to put a little religion in Schools hey? How about we close all the bars and clubs on Saturday at 1 am to make sure all those relgious people who like it in schools want to practivce it in their adult life as an example to the children and SHUT DOWN the drinking and go to church on Sunday? Practice a little preaching for us so we know youre living the GOOD life.

how about if we have the Church Lady monitor these threads to make sure we all play nice too...that no one use a foul word or speak about a sexual body part again?

When the Federal Courts yank it, dont blame anyone but your own zeolot foolish teacher. There are orgs salivating to bring such an action against the Church. All they do is invite trouble and in the end, they will loose they flock and their money.

how about if we have the Church Lady monitor these threads to make sure we all play nice too...that no one use a foul word or speak about a sexual body part again?"***

See now you're just being absurd. You're going to far extremes and trying to confuse the issue, and talking about parental figures to boot, but here's the rub...we're not TALKING about the parents. I am hearing complaining about "forcing" kids to do this, and keeping them from doing that, and not teaching religion in school, keep it in church "where it belongs," yada yada yada...when what you're really doing is taking the OPTION for kids to study what they want. What about all the kids whose parents ARE deadbeats, who aren't around for them, who don't support them in any decisions they make or care about what interests them? What in the hell makes people think they have the option at home of going to Church? What about the inner city kid with the father on crack and the mom out turning tricks, do you think they would respond favorably if the kid says, "hey ma, I really want to go to church, can I go sometime?" More likely they would be laughed at, or worse. If we have a responsibility to the children to give them options as to what they learn, and options as to what they believe or learn about, where else where they get the information if NOT at school? Certainly not at home! I see the same people whining about how parents are the main cause for kids going astray wanting to deny religious education in the schools, ok fine...there where exactly do they get the chance to learn about it and decide for themselves what they believe? WHERE exactly? From the same parents you claim dropped the ball to begin with, the ones who can't spend five minutes with their kid on homework are going to take them to church on Sundays, or let them read the Bible if they want to?

Ah but I forgot about the teacher who burned crosses into the flesh of children. Well actually, lasered is more like it, it was more like a temporary tatoo lasting a few days, but you go ahead and make it sound like they were branded, that's alright. We should definitely sacrifice the learning options of all the children everywhere for that one man. HE could come back and do it again...

...CHEE CHEE CHEE CHEE, HAWW HAWW HAWW HAWW. Hide your children folks, the woods aren't the only danger these days.

I get so disgusted when some Hollywood screenwriter wants to make something believable by having some geek working miracles with a computer. A computer predicts nothing, it is the man who crafts the simulation that does.

Please man, we cannot even explain gravity or magnetism, yet we use it because we can predict it's effects. Generally, if you throw something up, it comes down. Unless you throw it REAL hard. Now faith would simply tell you to keep on trying to throw real hard. Science, however, actually can tell you how hard to throw to make sure nothing comes down.

I was at least joking while they are not. they defy federal court decisions and come right back with the same bad creation science. I showed you in qoutes where the Tx School Board member equates Evolution and Creation as science and yet its been struck down by federal court decisions.

They must read those and toss them aside, like a person on death row, who is looking for the eye of a needle to slip the camel through.

Captain, why dont you tell us what it is you like to see happen then. What teachings do you want to see included in schools classrooms?

If you dont mind...we will open with a moment of prayer ....

Followed by how old is the Universe?

How old is the planet?

How old is the oldest living lifeform known on the planet and what is its location?

What are the extinction periods...how many of them are there?

what is the controversy all about with regards to the Cambrian Period. and lastly....

Did man ever live side by side with Dinosaurs? These are but a few questions I would like answered by anyone proposing to put religion in schools. And with those answers could they also include the scientific findings they base their hoped for teachings on?

Why does man have so many skin colors ? <-----this is a real good one...I love the answer to this one. The Christian answer that is. For yrs the answer was God confused their language, causing a break-up of the population into smaller groups which scattered over the earth. That was gospel so to speak. Accpet it lock stock and barrel. Fortunatley most Chrsitians nowadays have benfitted from Genetics. I dont know about the most backwards of theologians like a Falwell, R.I.P., Notwithstanding, when we come to the topic, will we hold to a literal reading here on this topic or vere off onto a more politcally correct road of genetics, thats not offensive and racially charged? Once we pass by this, who knows when we might get back off the right road...only when we see fit to keep in line with what WE see fit?

Bobbing and weaving in and out of Creation, through science when convenient and expedient and back into creation myth when we dont have all the answers.?

This a God of the Gaps Science.

All kidding aside now and no more sarcasm, no gothca moments here...if you want something in schools you should know what that is I should think. It seems that people know ALL about evolution, that its atheistic. So, lets please see this religious science revealed.

We don't have all of the answers.

All I know, is that when we talk about, to put it in layman's terms, slime in the ocean managing to multiply, and some sort of legless amphibians growing legs, crawling out of the sea, and somehow evolving eventually into every type of animal and eventually human beings- it seems to me that THAT takes a whole lot more faith than believing that there is a God, and that HE is the one who put the universe and everything in it into motion-

The one thing that evolution DOES do, is basically, in a roundabout way, state that we are responsible for our own evolution, because hey, there IS no god, right? It smacks of humanism-

The meaning of humanism, in a philosophical sense, which is pretty well what we're talking about here:

"a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God"

And since I was raised believing in the bible, this is where my ideas come from- it's what I'm made of, it's what I believe in- but I don't believe it because I'm like so many people today who tend to follow along in popular belief like cattle following all of the other cattle; I believe it because I've read everything I can get my hands on, pro and con, and have read for YEARS and years- and a belief in a God who created us is what I came to-

If that was ALL that Science WAS I would not be so impressed by it. If understanding theories like Gravities didnt alow us to go to the Moon and back didnt produce said result, who would be impressed? Or if Open Heart Surgery wasnt possible, or the many many cures for Disease werent brought about by rigorous testing rather then someone tossing dust in the air and chanting some prayers I would not be so impressed by it.

I would imagine alot of prayers were said thes past weeks in Iowa all during the floods and after asking god one WHY and two please relieve thses waters and as of this date waters flow.

I saw a woman crying her eyes out and she was saying she didnt know what she had done to deserve such treatment but she just wanterd to say that she still had faith. I wished someone had told her that scripture had promised God had promised he would NOT destroy the Earth by flood again. Therefore, these floods are NOT of gods doing but Natural in nature.

Shame based relgions. How much pain do they inflict? Good Christians who probably never harmed anyone actually believe they are cursed? Puleeeeeeeze....

My own view on this whole thing, and I will never push my beliefs on anyone else- I'll state them, like I'm doing now- but my view, is this: those who scream, bitch and moan about that horrible thing, "religion in the schools" do NOT want to admit the possibility or, heaven forbid, PROBability of a Being Higher than THEMSELVES, and give up the idea that mankind is behind 'the big boom'- bottom line, we all want to think we're the masters of our own ships, when the truth of it is, we are NOT even responsible for the next breath we take- if your heart stops, who is responsible for starting it again? Who makes the heart beat, and the blood flow, and the brain kick in with it's little currents, who can even begin to understand it?

Rebellion against God- old as mankind itself-

By the way, Scorpion, Religion is no more to blame for a teacher who takes it upon himself to put a cross on students arms than a LACK of religion is to blame for Jeffrey Dahmer eating people.

Captain...I dunno how to repsond to a post that includes Dahmer and religion, lack of , science or lack of....Jim JOnes? Halle Boppers? perhaps Falwell telling the faithful 9/11 was a curse from god?

U R 2 Cents is always welcome Mostie...I know your a believer.

I'm not sure that you guyz get that your preaching to the choir when talking a God and and how you read your Bible. And why is it Exacty that I feel like I am them one being JUDGED here lol....2 funny really. But then, all good Christians Judge one another it seems , eh? I bet theres about 10 billion zillion million churches to teach religion in this Country. A hundred times more book stores online and in your towns to sell the bible. bible studies through the mail too. I took one through the mail many yrs ago. And Religion finds it has to come to school. Standing on street corners passing out leaflets, and standing on soap boxes in NYC and every other city in this country yelling "repent, the time is Nigh!"....All that freedom and they want to squirel away in some school house. Then again that just like a Christian, to go where its forbidden and break the law. Break the laws of Christ to. He said to give unto Ceasar what his and I know we've been taught to obey the laws and despite what any of us have done in our past....today is today. Not yesterday.

oh...the Bible..got side tracked...forgive me. I Wasnt addressing you Mostie or your Husband...see, I dont know sometimes if you guys get that either. I use this as my platform to be heard to get my voice out. Im ranting at the Christian who think that way. If that isnt you than dont sweat it.

I read mine often. In fact I've stated I try to live by Romans 12. There was a time I began each day by reading it for many yrs. I have one staring me in the face right now. I'd love to tell you more but in light of recent events on this site, I am not because you cant trust those who lurk in the shadows for just that chance to do you harm. I'd love to testify for you.

I wont qoute Scripture coz everyone else has been good enough not to turn this onto church group too much however there is good scripture supporting what I believe , or I wouldnt follow it so fervertly. And I wont apologize for my faith either. What I expect from my fellow Christian is what I give, some honesty for one. With regards to whats been taught to them and what they like to be taught to kids.

I read alot of opinions and dont see any "creation science" offered up in real terms.

Forget the evolution for one minunte. I havent heard one single person answer these questions.......how old is the Earth. ?

Did man walk with dinosaurs?

Did Noahs flood ever happen as taught to most of us?

Theres three things outside of Evolution that are Christian teachings I would like answered.

Anyone want to saty what they want the kids to be taught with just these three things?

To the question of Evolution:

Actually I would think that it takes alot more study than faith. Thats just an opinion but your point is well taken. Where I think you err is that scientific discovery is tested, In fact its set up to fail so its theory can be then verified. And we know atheists rely on evolution to support their position. You make the jump as so many people do and think wrongfully that there is only one camp in the Theory of Evolution-the unbeliever or the "heretic" I dont have any problem with any one of your particular beliefs. None. Its just when we begin to turn to schools...thats all.

To address to your statement again about all life being linked. The Genetic code says that at the very least if evolution is false that the very stuff of life, the mRNA that was used is the same for all life. Meaning that every single lifeform on this Earth is made up of the same DNA sequencing to some degree or another. Chimpanzees and Men are 99.9% the same. That also corresponds with the bone structure, esp opposing thumbs which man could not have made all these tools.

I.

Give.

Up.

You are beyond hopeless. You are a lost cause without parallel. Completely clueless. But you have put a big smile on my face with your assessment that it was the 'Progressives' who are partly to blame for Canada's laws. Comparing Brian Mulroney to a US Democrat-- now that's hilarious. Of course I knew Ronald Reagan was a Republican, you completely missed my point while trying so hard to be condescending. Surf the web a bit more, I'm sure you'll find photos of Brian Mulroney being chummy with Ronald Reagan, maybe even that video where they're singing 'When Irish Eyes Are Smiling' together with Nancy and Mila looking on and beaming. Poor Brian, reduced to comparisons with US Democrats now. Ask your Canadian friends who they voted for back in the 1980's, assuming you get a straight answer. They'll probably fudge and say they never voted, the liars. If they tell you 'The Tories', remind them that in pre-2000 thereabouts, the Progressive Conservatives WERE the Tories. Oh, and you may want to pick Canadian sources for some of your information about Canada. Somewhere, you got the idea that people actually called the PC's 'the Progressives'..?

Ok, got it, so we can insert whatever subject we like into what is taught, by underhanded means, so long as it agrees with "my/our" personal beliefs. Bring on the creation science then, I guess.

But consider... as you sit in a chair *not on dirt* typing on a high tech device in a heated/cooled dwelling, with clean water to drink if you need, and in relatively peace, that religion didn't bring you ANY of that, people with brains did.

And what brought us people with "brains?" Funny how those that think they have them never get that part, lol.

Thanks for the "think they have them" bit. You might try opening yours up and showing you have one too, beyond the sarcasm. I'm flatly not interested in a sermon.

Odd how incredibly poor a tool sarcasm is for a debate, no?

How about it?

You mean like, say...the thought that complex brains and the capability of thought and emotion coming from a slimey encephalopod in the bottom of the sea? That kind of "supernatural fantasy?" lol...you've got a market on the sarcasm yourself Kee, so don't play the martyr.

"Ok, got it, so we can insert whatever subject we like into what is taught, by underhanded means, so long as it agrees with "my/our" personal beliefs. Bring on the creation science then, I guess."

How about it?

But to get on-topic with the subject of religion in schools, consider Canada's example of the Residential Schools where Aboriginal, Inuit, and Metis kids were housed and schooled in joint ventures shared between the governments and prominent church groups of the time. The following quotes are from a web site called http://www.turtleisland.org/resources/resources001.htm :

"Selfless Christian duty and self-interested statecraft were the foundations of the residential school system. The edifice itself was erected by a church/government partnership that would manage the system jointly until 1969. In this task the churches Anglican, Catholic, Methodist and Presbyterian led the way. Indeed, their energetic proselytizing resulted in the opening of residential schools in Ontario, the north-west and British Columbia even before the Davin report was submitted in 1879. Thereafter, the system a combination of boarding schools built close to or in reserve communities and Davins centrally located industrial schools was expanded rapidly, reaching a high point with 80 schools in 1931 (see Table 10.1) and growing again in the 1950s as part of the nations post-war expansion into Inuit homelands. It was maintained until the mid-1980s."

"Tragically, the future that was created is now a lamentable heritage for those children and the generations that came after, for Aboriginal communities and, indeed, for all Canadians. The school systems concerted campaign to obliterate those habits and associations, Aboriginal languages, traditions and beliefs, and its vision of radical re-socialization, were compounded by mismanagement and underfunding, the provision of inferior educational services and the woeful mistreatment, neglect and abuse of many children facts that were known to the department and the churches throughout the history of the school system."

Mostie, Cap'n, nobody isn't saying that what you want isn't noble or is frivolous and isn't certainly justified by your own religious beliefs or faiths. But look what happened up here in Canada during the golden eras of family values and community Christian value when the governments decided to co-run schools with religious groups as a means for problem-solving (in this example, the integration of aboriginal people into 'modern' society). Whatever you're proposing might work, but all it takes is one person with a personal agenda or the wrong person in the wrong position of authority or a decision to escalate when proposed methods aren't working nearly as well as imagined. People keep saying that Canada's tax system is too high because of all of socialized programs we have up here-- it doesn't help that my taxes seem to be going into making good on the past mistakes of previous government good intentions.

Ok Kee, I'm sure you won't like the answer, but I'll respond to it (even though no one has answered of my own questions). Religion is not something new that hasn't been taught in the schools before. I believe it should be a part of an overall curriculum...I'm not saying it should be a large part of schooling, and I'm not saying it should be only one faith that is studied, but I do believe it should be a subject a student has an option to learn, along with all the other subjects in school. For many reasons, but one big one is the fact that many parents AREN'T giving their kids support and options at home anymore. Like I said before, if school doesn't give them education about things, and their parents don't, where are they supposed to get it?

I never said Evolution didn't have a place in the studies...I just said I didn't believe in it, and I said it doesn't go along with Creationism. There is no middle ground, no "gray area" when it comes to the basic, beginning precept of the Bible in Christianity. You either buy the idea that God created man in his image, or you buy the idea that we evolved from something else, but how do you reconcile the two?? Scorpio sits here and says what a "good Christian" he is, and how he is such a believer, and then in the next breath denounces the whole idea that God made man in the first place. Did I miss something, how is it that those two beliefs are conducive to each other? How do you sit on both sides of the fence without falling?

No, I don't believe it is up to anyone to put anything they want into a school curriculum. I DO believe if something is a staple of society, and a majority of its population believes it is credible, that it should at least be offered as a choice. You know, it's funny, but world religions can be studied in school, without a word being said...but when it comes to Christianity, for some reason, that seems to piss people off. Why is that? Why is it that the mere mention of "God," which could be taken to mean different things in different regions and religions, causes such a stir, and gasps of disbelief, resulting in people losing their jobs, their careers, and sending administrators running for their lawyers? What exactly has happened in society that that is such a horrible thing these days, when it seems we need something to believe in more than ever before? This isn't exactly the days of Elizabeth in England, where people have to worry about being burned for having different faiths...so where is all the paranoia coming from??

***"but all it takes is one person with a personal agenda or the wrong person in the wrong position of authority or a decision to escalate when proposed methods aren't working nearly as well as imagined."***

Biff, I appreciate your comments. The truth is, that's always an issue whatever the subject is, even the Presidency isn't without reproach. Built-in safeguards aren't always so safe, maybe when it comes to education and the school system there shouldn't BE anyone with such power. I didn't know Canada had ever co-run the schools with religious groups, but then I didn't know anything about the FreeMasons either, other than reading about them in the "DaVinci Code," lol. I certainly don't have answers for HOW to run things, it just seems to me that if a person can go to college and take a course on virtually anything under the sun, our kids (many of whom may never have the choice or option to go to college), should be able to learn things they can use in life. And I still believe religion, whichever faith they may choose to follow, if they even choose one, CAN be something they can use. But that's like anything else, not everyone will always use it well, and there will always be exceptions that use it for wrong purposes. I don't think Islam studies have been taken out of the schools in the Middle East because of Bin Laden, because what he did isn't what Islam teaches. It was the person who committed those crimes, not the religion.

No problem with that at all, just don't want material slipped in on the fly.

I could see a good class growing out of the material in this topic, the teacher wouldn't lack for questions or opinions!!

And I have asked a number of times now just what part of religion do you want taught? And where? Certainly Christianity has a place in history, I would totally agree with this idea and submit that it upended world societies and views. That isnt what we are talking about here with so called creation science.

I could agree with you if you said hey, leave that creation science out because its not supported by astrobiology, Astronomy, Physics, Nuclear Science and the like, which it isnt.

How old is the Universe? The Earth? Is the Flood Story of Noah true literally? did man walk with dinosaurs? These are the things Creation science want to teach.

If these arent the areas you want to include in your studies of Christian teachings, than you might save us some time. Speaking of which, just what Christian Teachings do we should include?

What about Islamic? Hindu? Are you sure you want to open the door to here all about Muhammad in your schools? Coz this is exactly what you are inviting. Do you want to get bogged down in why women should wear head scarves? And all that non sense?

And, that is just ONE religious sect. Ask anyone from NYC just how many languages you hear on the sreets there in Manhattan!!!!

From all over the world people bring their beliefs.

****Scorpio sits here and says what a "good Christian" he is, and how he is such a believer,***

I think thats a mischaracterization of what I have been saying. In fact, no where in my posts did I say I led a perfect life. Considering the somewhat unfriendly posts I have received here recently, do you think I want to toss my life here for inspection?

What I would say Captain is this, It does seem and I hate to say this is- that you like all those at the Disco Institute dont understand when the federal court says in two or three different opinions that creation science is NOT a science at all but religion, you cant go back and rename it to some other THING and turn around and insert it back in schools. This , I find not only offensive but rather a lazy exercise. If there is some science to it...go do some work on it. There is none and I have been trying to tell you this and Like Behe testified before the Judge in Dover, their definition of "science " is so loose it has to include Astrology.

Additonally, Cimm even posted to you a number of times that Constitutionally its not what the founders wanted and the establishment clause forbids it.

If you feel so strongly , and I know others do, then maybe a grass roots movement to change the constitution and have this country become a theocracy like Saudi Arabia is. Or Iran is.

***I never said Evolution didn't have a place in the studies...I just said I didn't believe in it, and I said it doesn't go along with Creationism. There is no middle ground, no "gray area" when it comes to the basic, beginning precept of the Bible in Christianity. You either buy the idea that God created man in his image, or you buy the idea that we evolved from something else, but how do you reconcile the two?? ****

Oh Really? Scientific hypothesis' are set up to find a neg therefore negating the theory they seek. Now, T of E has yet to find the neg to what they have thought. When they find it, youll be the first to hear about it. How do we test the Creation hypothesis? That life appeared abruptly?

In biology labs everywhere kids are learning about evolutionary biology and testing this theory through chemical analysis. Just how do we test "Life appeared abruptly theory"?

google John Paul 2 message on evolution and see how he did. Perhaps that might help you see how a highly spiritual man did. Im Catholic and for many yrs I didnt want any part of my Church until he came along and put alot of things in perspective. He apologized to Galileo, who has been dead for over 500 ys for the Churches behavior in stifling his work. How dare he say that Sun was orbiting the Earth but we were orbiting it. He also said that Genesis speaks of Man being created out of the dust of the Earth, some books used the word Clay. Evolutionary has another way man come forth both use the Earth as a vehicle, therefore, he instructs the faithful to STUDY evolution as theory. Should a new discovery arise tomorrow, we can adjust the theory and not toss our faith in GOD.

I have done just that and you dont have to renounce one for the other I dont think. You dont have to believe in Evolution as a religion for Gods sake. Its merely and explanation of how life works.

***I never said Evolution didn't have a place in the studies***

Its basically a biological study at its core but exponentially it does expand and explain life out from the molecular level to species and beyond. It does take in the environment of those Species and how that effected change.

The definition of Evolution is not some swampy notion but it is this:

Evolution of life was caused through Natural selection and Random mutation, nothing more.

***I never said Evolution didn't have a place in the studies...I just said I didn't believe in it, and I said it doesn't go along with Creationism. There is no middle ground, no "gray area" when it comes to the basic, beginning precept of the Bible in Christianity. You either buy the idea that God created man in his image, or you buy the idea that we evolved from something else, but how do you reconcile the two?? ****

What Creationism teaches isnt close to being correct with regards to the science of Astronomy, Physics, Nuclear Science and not to mention the geologic record and the age of the Earth. Christians who are stuck on creation are arguing over old Earth vs young Earth, neither acknowledge a very very old Universe. They have some new myth that things unfolded faster than the speed of light. I posted it above. Did you read it?

Its not just the biology, its the hard sciences also where "Creation Sciences" are at complete odds with the truth.

Its here, at this point, where I begin to become very sarcastic and call THEM , not you ..unless you count yourself among them as 'good christian' teachers of bad science. So, to put in qoutes "Good Christian" and then attach it to my name as if I am a sort to hypocrite....hmmm likelihood is that yes I do sin...but I dont lie to my kids...I wont lie to yours either...not in school...not on the street.

Those of us who are looking to educate our kids with good science are asking that they given the facts.

***Why is it that the mere mention of "God," **** Yes I would agree. If the curriculum that followed was not directly out of the Bible, with regards to Intelligent Design and Creation Science, you might not have such a hard time from others. You should direct your disdain to our other Christians Bros perhaps. THe astrologers...not us.

I am not with all the pushing up on Christians who want to wear Crosses on their chains at School, that I heard about over a yr ago.

Captain, Do you ever watch Joel Olsteen? Heres a guy who has a following and big money. He doesnt get on TV and condemn people for life style choices. He is out front trying to help people, lift them up. Im not a follower of his but I admire his style. Across from Olsteen is the Christian Right, who say he doesnt have the qualifications to teach. That he doesnt condem sin enough. Seems to me these people who condem dont read Christs words enough, he wasnt one for condemnation but forgiveness, he didnt go around finger pointing, he lifted to poor and sick.

People are just TIRED of tha

========================================================================

His being black isn't the question (besides he isn't black, he's beige). The facts are:

(1) Obama has no executive branch government experience

(2) There isn't any evidence to suggest he can run anything, not even a Wal-Mart store

(3) He has no military experience and we are in a war

(4) His self-admitted mentors are communists, racists & muslims (all enemies of the USA)

(5) His wife is a racist (and presumably he is too, or he wouldn't be married to a racist)

(6) He plans to disarm American citizens, in total disregard for our 2nd Amendment RIGHTS (which is the first thing all totalitarian leaders have done, such as Hitler & Stalin)

(7) He's NOT a patriotic American

If those reasons aren't enough, nothing more I can say is going to make any difference

Mostie, I know the concept of interlinked life is one thats hard to grasp. At this time I know of only two ways to replace a Heart Valve. There are two types of artificial valves available - mechanical valves made entirely from metal and pyrolytic carbon - or biological valves - made from animal tissues. In the future, Cloning, would make a new avenue open up

In the whole life systems that I/D teaches this might not be possible, I dunno....I'd have to ask someone who is more knowledgable. Its their held belief however, that systems come complete from their Design planner. So_How_could this interchange even BE possible I wonder? Take a heart valve from a pig and put it in a Mans heart or a Cows Valve???

I wonder, given the confidence of mechanical breakdowns and the wonderous of life, when given the choice between a Heart valve from a freshly slaughtered healthy Cow or Pig OR one from ACME Products would choose the mechanical?

****Ok Kee, I'm sure you won't like the answer, but I'll respond to it (even though no one has answered of my own questions).****

Like you've addressed any of the scientific ones I posed here with regards to the hard sciences and FLood stories. Your answers , you might find would put you in direct conflict with "Creation Science", Rick.

The Christianity I learned- that we are part of a chosen people apart from Judaism but I wasnt taught about the link between Islam and the Judeo-Christian Beliefs. Muhammad was some nomad really. Whatever his beliefs were, they were probably connected to something the pharoahs believed but we were the chosen people. We are told the Jews are excused from excepting Christ right? That they have a different convenant?

Inside Christianity is its history. Catholicism for one, of which I am A member is now being branded by such people like Rev Hagee who has friends in DC as A "Whore" I worship a whore according to him and his followers. He gives millions to the Jewish defense league. I wonder what they think.

I have some problems within my own faith!!!I wont bother you with what they are but the upshot of my faith was despite the good nuns:

The Seven Sacrements-

1Baptism

2Communion (Eucharist)

3Penance and Reconciliation

4Confirmation

5Matrimoney

6 LAst Rites

7 Holy Orders

I've done one thru five(and sometimes even go to church) and dam well want six when I depart but, which one do I get to insert into your schools?

From Catholics theres the Reformation and all the Schisms of Christianity. How are we going to put together a little religion for science class? Theres no such animal.

I just find it hard to understand why a person can't take a look around them, at life and the way it's all interlinked, and not believe that there is a Higher Intelligence behind it, orchestrating it all- I feel, at times, that people who are so against religion and pro-science have this desperate need to understand the mechanism of a thing in order to believe in it- and I think it's a much more difficult thing to actually let go, and turn over the reigns to Someone outside of ourselves, we all want that control, and it's hard to let go of that- we want that which we understand, that can be explained, and I think that deep down, we fear the unknown- be it the great 'out there', or God, or the hereafter-

That is why he invented evolution.

But contrary to Albert Einstein it seems he DOES play dice, if Nuclear physicists are on the right track, and not about to turn the universe into a little itty bitty black hole with that new Hadron collider in a few years time. They do admit the possibility but feel it is worth the risk, last I heard.

Maybe I WILL buy that Audi A 5 this year, on second thoughts. I may not be here to enjoy it otherwise

Why couldn't have God simply, through using "inteligent design" started with the "big bang" and "created all" through the process of "evolution" ?

And religion in schools? That's called a "parochial" school (i.e. catholic schools, etc) or private schools (where the parents can choose) vice the public/tax-payer school system

God is everywhere, there is nothing ANYWHERE stopping people from PERSONALLY/privately practicing their beliefs "as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others" (the often forgotten OTHER side of each "right" in the Bill of Rights and their subsequent ammendments)

or, some people here could just blather on and on and on and on about it, yada yada yada

God is a personal thing - practicing your religion is something you do with others who believe the same as you

"Believing" the unprovable (in your religion) is called FAITH

We didn't "hang" with the Amish in school where I grew up - they didn't "hang" with us; not because there was a rivalry or because we didn't like their beliefs, but because they liked and did different things than "we" did

Public schools? Science, math, reading, arithmetic, etc

Want religious theory? Save it for private schools, SUNDAY SCHOOL (ya'know, after or before church etc), Bible School for kids or Seminary (which is private) for those who wish to pursue it beyond PUBLIC schools

But back to the beginning of this post, why is the world SO NARROW MINDED that they can't believe that it took ALL of it for God to create the miracles we call life on earth?