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I believe the auto industry should fend for itself under the same rules, regulations, laws, and procedures as all other businesses.

I also feel that many of the democratic leaders in Washington want the bailout simply so they can keep union members (voters) happy, which is a terrible reason (in my opinion).

The unions are the root of the problem.

TCK! If it wasn't for unions in most cases the regular worker would be f.ucked over. But I will add I did work for a company called Volvo, they make the big trucks! That union had the company by the balls, they got what they wanted all the time and I don't think that is right, but neither is being a SCAB! If the union is the root of the problem how do you explain the anti-union big shots who have tons of money and are not willing to take a pay cut in order to help everyone out? Sounds like corporate greed and a lack of respect for the people who actually do the work!

This just reported on CNN:

"Bipartisan talks in the Senate on an auto industry bailout have collapsed, and the bill appears dead, sources tell CNN."

With the death of that bill should soon come the death of the United Auto Workers (Communist) Union.

R.I.P.

Time for workers to actually go back to work, the party is over.

lol, if the union dies, then it won't be any workers

Do the foreign companies making cars here in the U.S. know there won't be any workers?

Maybe you should get them to hire you as a 'consultant' and let them in on your 'secret'.

The Japanese have been manufacturing cars here in the U.S.A., with non-union employees, and kicking GM's ass for a quite while now.

If thats true then the americans need to get smart and come up with the same idea

(I agree ^)

Incredible - this morning's reports state that the 'bailout' didn't pass because the UAW union was unwilling to make concessions until the end of their current contract in 2011.

When/if the auto industry goes into restructuring under Chapter 11 bankruptcy provisions the union contracts can become null & void.

last time i looked ...american capitalism was so corrupt and evil.....

i decided to leave the country and i have never been back!

feel real sorry for you all...

.not.

Where's the other Darryl?

who's Darryl??

Amsterdam, great CoffieShops.

"i decided to leave the country and i have never been back!"

Well Bl8ant, that's one solution I'd like to see more people use!

LOL

CNN spoke to world affairs expert and author Fareed Zakaria about a potential bailout.

CNN: Is a bailout of the U.S. automotive industry necessary?

Zakaria: There are really two different U.S. auto industries. And only one part of it would have qualified for the bailout that was just rejected by the U.S. Senate -- the inefficient part that is headquartered in Detroit. There is another auto industry in the United States and it is healthy. While it is obviously going through tough times because of the economic crisis, it has not gone begging to Washington for taxpayer help.

CNN: But aren't the Big Three the drivers of the American auto industry? (No pun intended.)

Zakaria: Actually there are 12 international car companies that have manufacturing operations in the United States. Collectively, they employ 113,000 Americans directly -- even though that is less than the 239,000 at Ford, GM and Chrysler. However, those international car companies sell more cars than the Big Three and their customers love their products. They have millions of American shareholders. They do sophisticated work like research, design and marketing in the United States. All in all, they add jobs and high value to the United States.

CNN: So what are they doing better than the U.S. car companies?

Zakaria: It is simple -- better management. Yes, Detroit has problems because of its legacy costs, the cost of paying health care and pensions to its retirees. But many other Americans firms in other industries have had to change their benefit systems or die. Detroit always managed to avoid making the change in part because of government assistance.

But companies like Toyota, Honda, and BMW are not just skilled at cutting costs -- they make better cars. They have more flexible factories and production systems, and understand what American consumers want.

For example, Toyota and Honda are years ahead of American carmakers in designing and producing hybrid cars, and as consumer demand moves in that direction, they will reap the rewards.

Al Gore remarked on the problem on our show a few weeks back. "It's really tragic that General Motors, for example, allowed Toyota to get a seven-year head start on the hybrid drive train in the Prius that is now positioned to really be a dominant feature of the industry in this century."

Every former Soviet citizen that I work with or know here in Maryland calls the auto-bailout pure Communism. And they should know.

At one time there was a place for unions, but that time has passed. Politicians want to protect them since unions present big voting blocks. This country hates independent thinkers.

Some financial people are saying that the Wall Street Bailout, just rewarded the inefficient in the financial industry, and effectively punished the efficient companies that did not receive gov't money. Govt is either incompetent for not getting this message, or corrupt for lending money to their cronies on Wall street. Not only that the Federal Reserve is not releasing significant information about some of those that received loans.

I dont agree that this country hates independant thinkers,its just unfortunate that the really bright people of the USA dont run for office..Its like that in Canada.

The Canadian version of the Big 3 are hoping that our government will jump ahead of the USA and offer them a bailout....I hope they dont.There should be a law that states any publicly funded bailout to private business is punishable by political banishment..

I believe the auto industry should fend for itself but::::::

1st lets discuss the ludicrousness of Handing our $350 BILLION!

To financial corporations who are supposed to finance the very companies this thread is about! FOOOOKIN mESSed Up dOg eAT dOg Fecking World!! Our givernment is in debt to evil

****heads like this.

But hey, got to hand it to the powers that be for looking after their own. I just want to shoot somebody thats all!!!!!

I'm fairly certain the auto industry won't receive a 'bailout'.

I think the White House is going to throw them a bone, so to speak, in the form of some small dollar amount just to make the whole issue go away. But this dollar amount won't be enough to really effect anything.

The Detroit big 3 business practices are already dead & gone, the union ways are dead & gone. They're just holding on to memories right now, maybe pretending things aren't actually the way things are. (The photographics industry, the music industry, and the newpaper/magazine industry each all did the same thing - they could not recognize the fact that they way they have done business for 100 years could actually go away. They just refused to believe it.)

Great memories of great times!

Theres no doubt that Union "contracts" could be re-negoiated.

TCK, youre a Repubican, or so it would appear. If America doesnt stand by its contracts, what good is its word?

Newt Gingrich...."Contract with America" founded on the Federalists documents, which among other things set up this country to be an enterprising one. A place where birthright was supposed to mean litle but we know thats BS.

When biz's sign on to a contract its supposed to be sacred, right? like your mortgage......try telling them you no longer agree with the terms. Thats is the real heart of the issue, are contracts binding anymore? Be it union contracts or insurance policies, 401k's that people thought were in safe products.....

THe friggin money alchemist dreamed up these pieces of worthless paper and sold them off while tying all your retirements to them. That is the bottom line, not what some line worker gets.

Ford reported in 2005 that the wages of line workers was roughly 50 billion while corporate profits, including financials were 5 times as high.

The Unions, as I understand, and I'm not on the tube much these days as before but I heard that the Unions agreed to roll back their wages to equal foreign companies in 2011, when their "contract" runs out. Thats a give back.

When the financial sector came in begging for help, powerful people, much more powerful than any union came in and said if they tank the whole system goes....coz, we do financing here now not manufacturing. Nothing could be more vital to the economy than a manufacturing sector.

Start buying American again and be an American. I never owned a foreign car in my entire life, new or used. Some of the parts I'm sure were made overseas however. I dont bag my groceries and use as little automation as possible. Wouldnt use ez pass if you bought for me.

I'll grant you this much, Unions got way out of hand with PAC funds....dude, my union just TOOK money out of our raises. It was a strong "suggestion" that a nickle or a dime go to PAC funding and then went to the floor for a vote. No one apposed coz....well honesty, lets just say it was the Machiavellian thing to vote for the suggestion.

The upside was they took money from our raises and fully funded our own health insurance, full coverage including dental.

My Mother was a teller at the racetrack for ten yrs and then she left for personal reasons but got vested. For 10 yrs she gets a whopping $180 per month. When I"m 62, God willing, I'll get 100 for EVERY yr I'm vested for.

Her Union was organized by the labors union, which is one of the worst unions. Them and the operating engineers...no ofense to crane operators, I love those guys having worked with them every job.

If my profession werent unique in an od sort of way, and there were lines of people, non union wanting to go do it, my union wouldnt have had the edge.

This is where Detroit screwed up. Cheap gas mixed with Americas love affair with HP,shift the line to larger SUV's and pick ups and they got screwed. No foresight and no will.

"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." G.S. Patton

I worked at General Motors in Wilmington on a shutdown. We took out the GM line and installed a new line and paint shop for Saturn around the yr 2000. It doesnt take that long for the mechanical and Detroit doesnt need to re-invent the wheel, just get better gas mileage. I was there at most, 10 weeks, 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week.

Most of the time was spent with millwrights setting up the robotics then anything else. That is what I saw, so its just an opinion.

Heres a great read for anyone interested. "American Theocracy: The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21stCentury" I borrow them from the library, besides they cost too much.

Congresswoman Kaptur had chapters 8&9 read into the record when the Treasury asked for extraordinary powers. Those two chapters have been right on the money and if the leading indicators are correct,we are going to be in shit, up to our necks. We wont be talking about Detroit, get a bicycle.

"TCK, youre a Repubican, or so it would appear".

You are wrong, things aren't the way they appear to you.

Time will tell what happens with unions, but business bankruptcy laws have been in effect for decades. Many companies (MANY) have gone in to bankruptcy protection because the business could no longer afford to remain in business under existing conditions.

It's time for America to get back to work, not seek contracts to avoid work.

Just my opinion.

Just a thought, how much is it going to cost everybody if these people are layed off permanently with UI, and probaby welfare? Would the government programs for retraining put another bite on the tax dollars that they used to get from these workers? And if so, what else would the government programs would they have to cut in order to take care of the tax base they just lost with all these jobs?

I have always bought North American when I can and alway will because that money stays here and I always figured that helped our economy, not someone elses. I know some products aren't made here so I have no choiceb ut I do read labels to see where they are made.

Just what I have been thinking about with all this talk anyhow!

Excellent points... ^

I too have considered the $$ situation between 'bailout' funds and Unemployment Compensation for the workers in the event of no bailout.

I believe the Unemployment cost figure would be MUCH lower than continuing to pay the current UAW worker union wages now, and THEN having them go on unemployment later anyhow.

I see the 'bailout' as a form of artificial 'protectionism' for a U.S. business that cannot compete with smarter businesses - smarter businesses based right here in the USA.

(If the 'bailout' goes through I will not ever purchase another GM vehicle.)

Once again... just my opinions.

An argument for no bailout. This link pertains more to the Wall street thing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/InvestmentOutlook09/idUSTRE4BA5CO20081211

" believe the Unemployment cost figure would be MUCH lower than continuing to pay the current UAW worker union wages now, and THEN having them go on unemployment later anyhow."

No offense meant by the republican(OK SO YOURE AN INDY) thing, its just the right wing corporate bagger politics would and do love so much to say, I'm a federalist when they probably dont know whata and how that all went down.

You made a valid point about Bankruptcy.

The UAW has in their contracts to get 85% of their wages coz most car line have regular shutdowns for newer and newer cars or switches to other company entities.I dont agree with no work and still get paid. However, how many middle managers get salried while their sitting home "working".

The Delaware local took money they would have otherwise got in wages and funded their own unemployment benefits to augment the states.

Unemployment insurance is just a pittance out of everyones check. It doesnt add up to jack and the employers in Jersey send matching funds. Its those who are working that pay for those who arent. I worked for at least one dozen different contractors each yr, filed and refiled, got partials and all that shit. Bottom line was this, dont show to work, no pay, miss two days in a row and dont come back. Go back to the hall. to pick up your money. No sick leave, no personal BS days off.

TCK, you go search those three companies profits before taxes and show me who gets the lions share. Its not the guy making the car.

My half witted Bro-in-law sells brand new Fords. He can shoot the shit, get financing come home and talk about a V-tech engine but ask him did they fix the mass air flow p[roblem or the O2 sensor problem and he doesnt know sh*t from axle grease

Please go find the numbers. I showed you Fords numbers and theyre the best sitting of the three. Marketing tells people what they want not what they need.

Most people today believe its right to have a car payment for the rest of their life, so they leased. Conventional wisdom says, either buy new and run it into the ground or buy a good 4-5 y/o car and keep it maintained for 4 and dump it, buy another 5y/o when most of it has deprecIated.

Even with an Union, theres no garuantee of a great wage for equal work nationwide. I met some Alabama Ironworkers up here with their whole families working on shutdowns. I asked them whats your rate in AL? it was half our rate. Good ole deep south, the right to work(for less). Cant fool those ole back woods guys. They know a good thing when they see one or heard about it ie. slave labor. More than a few of those ole democrats jumped ship and became dixiecrats. Good ole Ronnie Raygun himseln't for equal rights. Hes the one who put deficit spending in place as a philosophy.

Well, Ron, it aint morning in America, Its high Noon and you aint here to act your way out of this, you left by the side door, just Bush41,at least he uttered the words voodoo economics. Clinton at least paid off some off the debt and balanced the Budget two yrs running. Now, this half wit and I voted for him twice.

I look at him and listen in wonderment and think, how does so much power get to such the hands of such an empty minds. Oh yes, GW, lets turn the keys to the little Americans have left and allow all those global connections sweep it up.

I doubt anyone in a lifetime can know where so many freeking billion of dollars went over seas. We're dealing with Europeans, that are slicker then snot on a ho handle. They've bilking and hiding money for centuries.

"TCK, you go search those three companies profits before taxes and show me who gets the lions share. Its not the guy making the car."

It better not be the guy making the car, all they have to do is show up and do what someone else has already figured out for them. Easy as pie.

It better be the guys who do the creating, managing, sales, marketing, and the thinking, that get the lion's share of the money. And of course the investors. Those who take the risks and work with their brains make the money, not the wrench turners.

Most labour costs per vehicle are on 7-8%, where does the rest come from? Just going back to my last point, yes the "Bridge Loan" would cost the tax payers, but atleast with a chance at having the company pay it back, and put in a clause if any one of the companies goes under that the government has first lein on all sold assets to be payed back. If things do pick up, better to have the people working and getting payed by a company then to be getting the money from other government sourses that come from where?? Tax payers. Just my thought.

The Detroit big 3 business practices are already dead & gone, the union ways are dead & gone. They're just holding on to memories right now, maybe pretending things aren't actually the way things are. (The photographics industry, the music industry, and the newpaper/magazine industry each all did the same thing - they could not recognize the fact that they way they have done business for 100 years could actually go away. They just refused to believe it.) - tck_beachbum

This all comes with the territory of trying to halt progress instead of adapting to it. The auto industry is next to go if they continue their stodgy old practices (especially GM, who is known for its resistance to progress).

IMHO the problem is the unions..... many non-union employers know that treating their employees well is in their own best interests, but the Big Three will never be able to get away from the unions even if they did treat employees well.... the unions will never let that happen.... this means that the unions have to adapt to progress as well. As for the "bailout"? That should come with rules mandating they change their ways... both the automakers and unions.

"Most people today believe its right to have a car payment for the rest of their life, so they leased. Conventional wisdom says, either buy new and run it into the ground or buy a good 4-5 y/o car and keep it maintained for 4 and dump it, buy another 5y/o when most of it has deprecIated." - scorpio45

I guess Im wrong for buying 20 year old cars dirt cheap, fixing what needs to be fixed and then driving them around for a couple of years.

Im kinda wondering, couldnt the automakers use the "temporarily displaced" line workers to assist retooling their own lines? Or would the unions shit a brick if that happened?

(If the 'bailout' goes through I will not ever purchase another GM vehicle.) - tck_beachbum

I havent purchased a GM vehicle since owning my first Ford.

I hate car payments. I've done that with one used car, and one lease. Other than that I've paid cash for a new or a used vehicle and maintained it until that became cost-ineffective.

The problem is the way the unions do business now *hard-line, inflexible...*, not unions per se, they had and hopefully still have their purpose, they've just lost site of that: it's to keep us from being treated like the Chinese are. Although unions have a foothold in China, at Walmart of all places...

The real problem is manufacturers can find MUCH cheaper labor in other countries, or even other states. If they can use that labor, the union has no leverage and no bargaining power.

I've worked with or done work for all three of the big three, and I agree they have to change, as do the unions. GM in particular...Ford was good to work for. GM was almost impossible to work with...

Visteon was hilarious: "everyone else kisses our butts!". "Sorry, we aren't going to." They didn't like that much.

found this interesting.........

And these guys think they need a bailout?

by Ralph R. Reiland

It was a dead heat. General Motors sold 9.37 million vehicles worldwide in 2007 and lost $38.7 billion. Toyota sold 9.37 million vehicles in 2007 and made $17.1 billion.

That was the second best sales total in GM's 100-year history and the biggest loss ever for any automaker in the world.

For Toyota, that was roughly $1,800 in profit for every vehicle sold. For GM, it was an average loss of $4,100 for every vehicle sold.

Collectively, Detroit's Big Three automakers are currently losing about $5 billion per month, with Ford, General Motors and Chrysler, respectively, burning through $2 billion, $2 billion and $1 billion in cash every 30 days.

Tin cups in hand again during their recent testimony in Congress, leaving their corporate jets at home this time and promising to cut their paychecks to $1 per year, the CEOs from the Big Three came to Washington in even worse shape than during their Congressional appearance in November, upping their money appeal by $9 billion, from $25 billion to $34 billion. That's on top of the $25 billion in already authorized money to retool their plants.

General Motors and Chrysler added a "rush" to their latest bailout request, telling D.C.'s lawmakers that they need, respectively, an immediate $4 billion and $7 billion to ensure minimum liquidity levels, paid prior to the end of December. GM, as well, asked for an additional $4 billion for January and a third handout of $2 billion in the February/March time frame to forestall a financial calamity, plus a $6 billion line of credit from the federal government to ensure ample liquidity.

All told, GM says it needs an $18 billion taxpayer bailout, some 50 percent more than it said it needed just three weeks ago to turn things around.

With its hourly workforce already down 52 percent since 2000, from 133,000 to 64,000, and its executive ranks and salaried employees down, respectively, by 45 percent and 32 percent in the same period, General Motors now says it can get back on its feet by getting rid of its Saturn, Hummer and Saab lines and putting Pontiac on an endangered-brand list.

Also in GM's proposal for survival, and for paying back the money by 2011, is the elimination of 1,750 dealerships, the closing of four of its 47 plants, an additional 31,500 job cuts, and a new age of "full labor competitiveness" with foreign manufacturers in the U.S. within the next three years.

Currently, UAW workers at Ford, GM and Chrysler earn an average of $28 per hour, plus benefits. At the Toyota and Honda non-union plants in the United States, the hourly rate, excluding benefits, is $26 and $24, respectively.

Add the cost of benefits for the current workforce and the cost of pensions and health care for retirees (benefit-collecting retirees outnumber current workers by three-to-one at GM, Ford and Chrysler) and the difference in labor cost between a Toyota plant in the US. and the plants of Detroit's automakers jumps to $29 per hour.

More specifically, the hourly compensation cost for labor, including benefits and retirees' costs, at the Big Three is $73 per hour, compared with $44 per hour at a Toyota factory with American workers in the U.S.

Further, it takes fewer hours of labor to produce a car in Toyota's U.S. plants than at the plants of Detroit's automakers.

With more flexible work rules, GM says it could save hundreds of dollars per vehicle. The company maintains, for instance, that a company-wide use on non-union janitors, earning $12 per hour, would cut costs and increase competitiveness by up to $500 million a year.

Similarly, health care costs at GM for active workers and retirees account for more than a quarter of total labor compensation, adding approximately $1,000 in cost to every GM vehicle, compared to $215 in health care costs in each Toyota produced in U.S. plants.

Under UAW contracts, additionally, laid off workers are transferred to a jobs bank and receive 95 percent of their full pay and benefits to not work. This year, the cost to the Big Three will be an estimated $478 million, about $70 million less than Honda spent to build a brand new factory in Indiana.

Somewhere along the line, both management and labor in Detroit forgot the good economic advice of UAW head Walter Reuter: "Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead end street."

Ralph R. Reiland is an associate professor of economics at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh.

That is a great article, but I can see how the foreign long turm costs are much cheaper than the North American automakers as they have been building vehicles for how long in America, and does any foreign plant have anyone retired as of yet?

I guess its all in perspective.

Notso - you raise a huge point with the retirement issue.

The 'old' business method was for the company to provide retirement benefits, and company profits could rise & fall depending on the (uncalculatable?) cost of these benefits.

The 'new' way is for retirement benefits to be funded by an independent entity, an entity not dependent upon the company's performance, such as stock market funds or an outside plan. 'Newer' retirees receive funded retirement pay and they are responsible for providing their own health care coverage.

Could one quick fix for the automobile industry mess be national health insurance coverage for all people, starting now? Then the auto companies would not be financially burdened by these costs?

Interesting.

It would be a great idea, I agree, but the tax payer would be footing the bill in any case. So would more people like National Health Care that they have to pay for the rest of their lives, with no cost when they need medical care, or the chance of loosing money with a chance, be it a small one, loaning the Big 3 the money. Great thread!

And what happens after funding is loaned. How long before the next hand out request? I hate the over paid jobs for little to no work. Yes, I like to make money,but I have never wanted it handed to me. I started working when I was pretty young. Even from the age of 8 I was cleaning houses and babysitting for my own school clothes and pocket money. now, granted nobody wants to spend their entire lives working the arses off, but my personal experience has taught me that when you actually work for something, with a goal in mind, earn your money and reach your goals, it's better.

Am I wrong in thinking our values have gotten off track? Society today wants all the bucks for such a very little bang.

The whole subject of an auto industry 'bailout' seems to be losing steam among the politico's.

Sorry, getting back to Slinkysweeties post, I can remember as a kid, working out in cucumber fields picking them rotten little cukes by hand all day long, all summer long. I don't remember a summer that i didn't work in tobacco priming or hanging kiln. But today, none of our youth want any of these kind of jobs and every farmer that I know has to hire either mexican of Jamacian workers to do the work. For them a single summers work lasts them a year. Mind you I know they have different economies in their own countries.

And in reply to TCK's post, since "W" said he is going to step in, the steam is rapidly escaping. Doesn't want it to happen on his watch!!

Chrysler:

"Close of business Friday will be the start of a monthlong closure of 30 U.S. plants. Company cites 'continued lack of consumer credit.'..."

Makes sense to me - don't build up inventory that isn't selling. Reminds me of alot of businesses. Should it be different for the auto industry?

tck, you failed to mentioned that during this month-long plant closure at chrysler, that all employees except for their "white-collar" workers will not be paid. aren't these the same people arriving at a bailout meeting in their personal jets?

auto bailout, financial institutions bailout, etc... IMHO, the problem is companies that are quick to outsource, greed, politics, a lack of universal healthcare system, and yes slinky, a change in values. im not an economist, just simply an observer and a student trying to understand our nation's state of affairs.

I do not prescribe to the notion that businesses are in business to provide jobs for workers, and/or that businesses should forfeit profits just to keep workers on the job. Sorry, just my opinion.

Outsourcing, greed (which we are ALL guilty of), politics, and such, all appear to be necessary components in order for a company to perform well on the stock market.

Perhaps look at what workers create the inventory, and what workers market, manage, sell, and administrate the sales of inventory, and then it will become clear on why ALL workers aren't laid off. Someone has to be there to sell the current inventory.

(Then there is the small point that all of the employees you mentioned - they aren't in the union. So they keep working. Management rewards those who work 'for' the company and not 'against' the company. There was a place and time for unions, but no longer.)

Just my opinions. Nothing we say here will change the situation any.

From a business perspective you are correct, businesses are in business to keep the corporate entity going, the workers aren't really considered part of that, unless they're stockholders, I guess. There is a bad thing going on between management and labor. Look at Boeing.

What is good for a business is not necessarily what's good for a country, though, their are clearly some conflicts going on.

From a national perspective, when businesses outsource to other countries, thus sending that revenue to some other country, that ends up being a bad thing.

I like the idea of nationalized health care *which won't be free* to compete with countries who do the same and take some of the load off struggling businesses.

I agree companies shouldn't be soley responsible for healthcare and retirement, although having healthy employees *and thus more productive employees, that don't die on you...* gives management a more stable "tool" to work with.

I sort of think people should be thought of as unused but potentially valuable assets, that need a certain amount of maintenance to be kept viable. An odd sort of thought compared to current practices, I know.

I don't agree there is no place for unions: there is no place for what unions are now: corrupt and stupid. Unions keep workers from being chained to their machines, sleeping on straw pallets. Their purpose was to curb management abuses. That need isn't going to go away. Look at China. Do we really want to become like that? But we'll take advantage of that situation in China to get a cheaper product and better profits. I don't buy that one little bit, if that's globalization, I think tariffs are in order to equalize the playing field.

Not much place for management that makes promises to get work out of people and then breaks those promises, imo. I think if you promised retirement and healthcare, it needs to be fully funded. Otherwise don't promise it. If that puts them out of business, oh well. They are in that position now, anyways.

Man, it's too early for this, I need coffee...

(I agree with every word of that. Interesting, huh? )

National healthcare, paid from individual taxes, could be the 'bailout' EVERY company in the U.S.A. needs.

Personal IRA funded retirement could also be the additional 'bailout' EVERY company needs. When people realize that their retirement future is enhanced by a rising stock market maybe these same people would support U.S. business more, through purchases and work ethics.

We have the answers! Everyone tell your congressmen to join Mingles!

I saw on TV last night the CEO of Ford said (in a nutshell) they don't need the money.. and don't plan on using it...they have to go along with it because of the suppliers. If the suppliers go bankrupt (from losing business from the other 2 automakers) they will be up the creek as well....go figure.

I mostly blame the Unions for this too. Seems they would rather lose their jobs than make any compromises. JMHO

I wonder why Pickens idea on switching to natural gas for cars didnt get alot of traction.

Natural gas cars are considerably less expensive to run than gasoline-powered cars. On average, natural gas costs 30% less than gasoline. Furthermore, it is possible to refuel your car at home using your household natural gas line.

Natural gas, although it is a hydrocarbon, burns much cleaner than conventional gasoline. In fact, natural gas vehicles can reduce carbon monoxide emissions by 90%.

Safety is also a notable advantage for natural gas vehicles. They are considered safer because of the reinforced fuel tanks which makes them more resistant to leaks and punctures.

Theres Est 8 Million cars worldwide runnning on it.

The claim is they are the manufacturing backbone of the country... boy they are??? I thought we outsourced all our manufacturing years ago overseas... I think they mean what's left of manufacturing here...Anyway I know a few car dealers that closed, sad indeed, GM did not care that they closed, nor did the Gov't bail them out. I don't think GM, Chrysler should be bailed out. For years they have been arrogant, didn't build cars people wanted, paid themselves oodles of money, their stock began to take a nosedive in 2000 > why didn't they begin any changes then??? Corporate greed, cheats and liars with the premonition the Gov't will always help them. A shame to say the least. They should go through restructure, reorganize, become smaller in relation to their market share and build things people want to buy and that don't cost and arm and a leg. It's funny how certain ones get bailed out and others don't. Speaking of bailouts, the previopus ones didn't seem to work or fix anything.

Anyway again, last September, 2007, I noticed a three month consecutive drop in a few sectors and things I follow. I then said we were in recession, people laughed, and look at where we are today. Wall St, corporate corruption.

The recession will end in the summer of 2009. Oil will go to 29 if the chinese economy worsens. Then inflation will gradually rise, things will get better. The market on its own and in time will get it out of recession. It doesn't matter who the Gov't bails out, or how much money it throws around, if the problems aren't fixed, throwing money around isn't gonna do it. Many people will not re-enter the market, ever. There will be some funds and the such falling by the wayside. So, consider it as putting the trash out.

Where do I invest, gov't bonds, cash, select funds that have their board members invested in them, gold,commodoties and real estate.

How about this other Mofuk that stole about 50 billion dollars.

Tell you what, we shouold take a half a dozen of these people and have them shot.

They're not just stealing but they're undermining national security. The cumulative effect. that is.

De-regulation and unacountable right wing politics is nothing more than 2 wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner.

(Scorp - be a good friend and keep the off-topic comments for another thread? Thanks. )

Bush has a 'band-aid' plan for auto industry 'bailout' where he's going to provide GM & Chrysler with 'ONLY' $17 Billion dollars. Ford says they don't need the money.

He said the companies' workers should agree to wage and work rules that are competitive with foreign automakers by the end of next year.

(Bankruptcy is not a solution now, but after the mere sum of $17 Billion is spent, bankruptcy will be an option then, lol.)

WTF, lol.

Economic woes extend beyond auto industry in Motor City

DETROIT (AP) One measure of how tough times are in the Motor City: Some of the offenders in jail don't want to be released; some who do get out promptly re-offend to head back where there's heat, health care and three meals a day. "For the first time, I'm seeing guys make a conscious decision they'll be better off in prison than in the community, homeless and hungry," said Joseph Williams of New Creations Community Outreach, which assists ex-offenders. "In prison they've got three hots and a cot, so they commit a crime to go back in and come out when times are better."

For now, better times seem distant. Even with no hurricane to blame, Detroit has, by many measures, replaced New Orleans as America's most beleaguered city.

The jobless rate has climbed past 21%, the embattled school district just fired its superintendent, tens of thousands of homes and stores are abandoned, the ex-mayor is in jail for a text-messaging sex scandal. Even the pro football team is a pathetic joke the Lions are within two losses of an unprecedented 0-16 season.

And overarching these woes is the near-collapse of the U.S. auto industry, Detroit's vital source of jobs and status for more than a century.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I had no idea the situation in Detroit was this bad... geeeeeeez. What's the solution?

"(Scorp - be a good friend and keep the off-topic comments for another thread? Thanks. )"

Sounds patronizing but yeah, I'll stay focused.

So, other then doing away with unions, what else do you propose? Would you buy these new non-unions products simply because they're less expensive? Do you really believe that they will in fact cost less?

If given the choice between less expsenive or made better that is environmentally friendly, which one would you choose?

I am new to the site and I just wanted to put my opinion in on this topic, I am a union man and my company has a good union, I don't care much for a scab and if it wasn't for the Union alot of people may not be able to make a good living

private investigators have unions??......huh....learn something everyday.....

"private investigators have unions??......huh....learn something everyday....."

Tee-hee. I think its called the "Screen" Actors Guild.

Personally, I would rather see a health insurance bailout or some sort of related program where the nation benefits. Cars get made every day. Yes we would see a ton of jobs gone and more people out of work, but affordable health care should be more important. We always seem to be bailing out what seems to me to be more trivial matters. I'm all for helping where help is needed, providing we meet our more important needs here first. Perhaps I'm delusional or something. There are better things we can put that kind of money to use on instead of cars.

Robbi: I am a P.I. part time, but my full time job is working for a company called Yokohama Tire Company

Ahhhhh, I see......that makes more sense to me.......thanks

your welcome, lol. Yeah that would be a first a P.I. business with a union. Would have to be a really big firm

Big firm....or many firms all across the US joining forces....which really wouldn't be a bad idea for P.I.'s. Would perhaps give them a little more clout and information sharing opportunities.......

Hell WalMart is the biggest money-making business in the world now. The muti-billions that they make, they should be bailing these companies out!! Read the statics on what this store chain really makes! They have closed down thousands of business and almost all the "mom and pop" stores already. They are monopolizing the world!

(Welcome to the forum Irona, congrats on the first post!)

Maybe the auto industry needs to better study the business practices of Wal-Mart?

While I am not necessarily a fan of Wal-Mart's business practices, from an objective viewpoint Wal-Mart appears to be doing a fantastic job of running a profitable company under all of the current rules & regulations.

(For a non-objective point of view I don't blame Wal-Mart for accepting customer dollars. All of the people who shop there must like it.)

foxnews.com:

Autoworkers Union Keeps $6 Million Golf Course for Members at $33 Million Lakeside Retreat.

Even as the industry struggles with massive losses, the UAW brass continue to own and operate a $33 million lakeside retreat in Michigan, complete with a $6.4 million designer golf course. And it's costing them millions each year.

- - - - - - - - -

Since we the taxpayers bailed them out, do we still have to pay greens fees?

Well, we can see where some of the union dues went. They shouldn't be funding this with union money, let them pay out of their own pockets for this.

We bailed the unions out?

I'd say the principle behind unions needs to be kept, but the unions themselves need a reality check, they're basically cooked the way things are, imo. We'll all be working for peanuts soon, all a union will do is cause outsourcing.

I agree here, these unions need to use union dues for union matters, I didn't think the golf course was apart of that, I guess so! Not only do they need to stop this but some of the big shots maybe they need to take a paycut as well, we all know they can afford it

Benefits are nice to have as a rule, but these 'luxurious' perks don't help matters at all. There are better ways that sort of money can be put to use. $40 mil for golf? *snort of disgust*

no don't bail them out,they need to go out of bis.We got way to many cars any way.

Joanna Ossinger

FoxBusiness

General Motors (GM: 3.48, -0.15, -4.13%) and Chrysler are scheduled to get loan money Monday from the U.S. Treasury Department, according to the terms of their agreement.

Both companies are eligible for $4 billion as of Monday, the closing date of the agreement. GM is eligible for another $5.4 billion as of Jan. 16, and an extra $4 billion as of Feb. 17.

The funds are to be used for "general business purposes", according to the terms, and the loans expire of Dec. 29, 2011.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

General business purposes = fulfilling union contracts, and jet fuel.

(No mention in the fine print if we still have to pay greens fees at the union's country club, lol. )

Chrysler is facing a backlash from taxpayers and conservative groups after the ailing auto company took out a series of full-page newspaper ads last week to thank Americans for "investing" in the company through the government's $17.4 billion auto industry bailout plan.

(Would further investigation reveal that Chrysler owns stock in these newspapers?)

Izusu is folding up shop in the USA.

Toyota has announced a planned shutdown.

Off Topic: Just saw on the news how much of the other financial bail out money went to Bowl games. Real impressive.

im sorry i have to say this and if i offend any one to damn bad(lol)

i wish our goverment would get off the damn asses quit trying to send out 100's of billions of dollars and stupis crap like that and maybe use that money to save our own asses the homeless,the children,disater relief the chit we need the money for

Shop, I didn't see that......post a link or something......thanks

There are Unions and Union workers. Sometimes the two dont seem to be the same.

From my point of view, our union did us just fine but I know that no two unions run the same way.

I never liked the PAC funding they did and dont like it when they expect us to "get out the vote"

I believe the US Auto industry brought on its own problems by not producing cars that people want.

I just heard of a new gimmick by a foreign builder-if you lose your job you can return the vehicle without damaging your credit.

It seems to me that every ill can be solved by going into more debt. Theres something fundamentally wrong with this idea-I think. JMHO

When I first joined the workforce, the union I was "forced" to join did us just fine, too. They forced management to pay uneducated, unmotivated floor sweepers the same rate as motivated, educated, highly skilled employees. If management didn't go along, they were held hostage and shutdown with a strike. For awhile, they got their way. Of course their were no pay increases for the skilled laborer, so the floor sweeper could catch up. Socialism at it's best. Finally, the union leaders were indicted, found guilty and sent to jail for skimming off the employee pension funds. Cannot run a business if you can't remain competitive and your benefit package is astronomical. Permanent shutdowns. No one wins. Welcome to the new world.

NO Give the money back to us taxpayers and let us fix the problem

DETROIT Even by the standards of battered automakers, Chrysler is in dire shape. Its sales in December were down a stunning 53 percent, far worse than Ford or General Motors, and analysts say it probably won't survive the year as an independent company despite $4 billion in government loans and the possibility of more.

Things were so bad last year that a single Toyota model, the Camry/Solara midsize car, outsold the entire fleet of Chrysler LLC's passenger cars.

"Basically they're done," said Aaron Bragman, an auto analyst with the consulting company IHS Global Insight in Troy, Mich. "There is no real possibility of turning this thing around as an independent company in my opinion."

Chrysler will not comment on speculation about its future, spokeswoman Shawn Morgan said Wednesday.

I found that complete article Tck and it's amazing, since I didn't realize the gravity of the situation. I don't understand how this could happen since we send them $300 a month every month for the Jeep. They must be squandering our money........LOL

I think they were selling cars at a loss and trying to make up for it by selling more volume.

(Some people will actually think that is a viable plan, lol. )

Obama is facing opposition from even other democratic leaders regarding 'bailout' money.

It could get interesting.

I LIKE the idea of party members not automatically following party lines.

I appreciate when they don't necessarily follow party lines, however, when that happens I always look for self serving interests........

Look at Nancy Pelosi then, lol.

I think even the democrats are embarrassed by her self-serving bullshit.

She's the new 'Al Gore' everyone is ashamed to admit they know, lol.

NEW YORK General Motors Corp. will offer buyouts to all of its hourly employees, a spokesman confirmed Tuesday, as the troubled automaker continues to slash costs.

GM spokesman Tony Sapienza said the buyouts will mainly target GM's 22,000 retirement-eligible hourly employees, though any union employee can take the offer.

News of the buyouts first broke on Monday. A union official told The Associated Press then that GM would offer $20,000 in cash and a $25,000 car voucher for workers who retire early and those who simply leave the company. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because workers were not yet notified of the packages.

Sapienza confirmed that the offer will consist of a car voucher and a one-time cash payment, though declined to offer more details, saying that employees will be informed of the specifics of the offer on Friday. However, he said the latest offer would be less generous than previous buyouts.

Sapienza said employees will have until March 24 to decide whether to accept a buyout. Employees who accept the buyout will leave the company by April 1.

- - - - - - - -

This action comes:

1.) after Obama decides to give more power to the unions.

2.) just before the the union decides all members should be laid off permanently with full pay and benefits.

3.) and before the Goracle convinces us all that the problems are related to global warming.

What a country! Here in the USA we pay people to QUIT their jobs! I want a VISA!

Chrysler Begs Dealers to Buy More Cars.

Friday, February 06, 2009

Pleas from Chrysler executives for dealers to order more vehicles took on a more urgent tone Thursday as Vice Chairman Jim Press prodded them in a conference call to take more vehicles, dealers said.

Press and Executive Vice President Steven Landry urged dealers at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention in New Orleans on Jan. 25 to order 78,000 vehicles in February to help the company prove its viability and qualify for additional government loans.

Dealers said that on Thursday, the executives told them in the conference call that they needed to order 15,000 more cars and trucks by Monday to meet the goal, and that 70 percent of the company's 3,300 dealers had participated.

"You have two choices," Press told the group, according to the trade publication Automotive News. "You can either help us or burn us all down."

Chrysler, which is 80.1 percent owned by New York private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP, would have run out of cash in January were it not for a $4 billion low-interest loan from the U.S. Treasury Department. The company must prove its viability by Feb. 17 in order to get another $3 billion that it needs to survive the worst U.S. auto sales slump in 26 years.

You want to bail someone out. Tell congress to take the next ten years off with or without pay.

If I owned a dealership, I'd be thinking I waited just a little too long to sell it.

Why they would put themselves in debt to buy a product they probably aren't going to be able to sell... I guess some high pressure is being put on them.

(I agree... now isn't the time to own an auto dealership.)

Chrysler and their dealers might actually have to resort to the world's oldest sales technique:

- - - Lower the price.

Hahaha!! Well, as far as I can tell that's going to happen... one way or the other.

From what I've been reading the automakers are having trouble finding space to store all the vehicles they aren't selling... supply and demand, too much supply and no demand means their product is almost worthless.

As far as I can tell this bailout is bs... the plant assets and what personnel *inclusive, from the top down* actually can make something happen need to be retained, the rest need to go and the companies need to be reinvented, so to speak.

Always opportunities in times of change.

Great time to dump the Automotive Dealership and open up an Automotive Repair shop.

With people hanging on to their old cars, there should be plenty of business.

Its a double edge sword for the chrysler dealers.The cut and paste from tck up there doesnt reflect that the financial arm of crysler motor sales is not advancing the dealers any more money to buy the cars from chrysler...

these people at chrysler have a real communication problem:

dealers are overstocked!

chrysler is overstocked

chrysler credit has no money so dealers cant buy stock from chrysler even if they wanted to...

heres where it gets a little worse:

when a vehicle sits in inventory for 365 days the dealer has to pay the vehicle off to crysler credit as part of his wholesale line of credit obligations.Sales are probably off by over 30% at this time which means that inventory is building up.A dealer cant sell his vehicle for less than what he owes chrysler on it because as soon as the vehicle is delivered the dealer has to pay it out..

big problems for dealers!!!

lose the dealer body? chrysler goes broke..i give them no more than 6 months at the current pace and then its all over for chrysler..

I too believe that the underlying problem is debt financing, which is a fancy term for credit and borrowing money.

- - - Customers can't easily get loans (they can't afford) any longer to buy cars.

- - - Dealers can't purchase vehicles on credit for their lot as easily any longer.

- - - Chrysler is burning through borrowed money rapidly, with no profit support.

(And Chrysler's main focus right now is the intent of borrowing MORE money.)

The US was founded on Union principles.

Americans went on strike against the Crown.

Based on that logic soldiers should be using muskets, right?

Pardon my bias, but when I was in a union I felt uncomfortable. I wanted to do some work. But I was told to do less work, and to stretch out the job so we could get paid for more hours. We also went on strike for more pay, which eventually raised the cost of the product to the point where customers wouldn't buy the product anymore.

I fully understand why some people who can not stand on their own, can not do their own work, and must rely on others for guidance (those who can't do their own thinking), are still very much in favor of unions. In some ways I think unions may need to survive so these lazy, uneducated 'workers' (I use the term loosely) don't wind up in the 'gutter union' begging for money from the general public instead of companies.

Just my observances from my experiences with the union. Been there, done that.

On a positive note - GM is considering Chapter 11 Bankruptcy options and forming a new company.

The new company may be looking for some workers who actually want to work.

i need a job!

Don't let a union picket line stop you from getting one.

They'd like to think they are 'the chosen ones' but you have every right to work.

Healthcare concerns end GM, UAW talks.

Talks break down as General Motors seeks ways to cut costs, with only days before automaker restructuring plans are due in D.C.

DETROIT (Reuters) -- Talks between the United Auto Workers and General Motors Corp aimed at cutting costs and debt at the struggling automaker have broken down over union concerns about retiree healthcare, a person briefed on the talks said Saturday.

A parallel set of talks between Chrysler LLC and the UAW over similar concessions were continuing over the weekend but little progress had been made in the past week, a person briefed on those negotiations said.

The breakdown of talks at GM (GM, Fortune 500) and the stalled negotiations at Chrysler come with just three days remaining until both automakers must submit new restructuring plans to the U.S. government as a condition of their $17.4 billion bailout.

At GM, the UAW negotiators walked away from the bargaining table because of differences over how to pay the health care costs of retirees. No high-level negotiations were underway as of Saturday afternoon, although some working-level discussions continued, the person familiar with the talks said.

"It doesn't seem like the stakeholders are really prepared to give a whole lot," said independent auto industry analyst Erich Merkle. "It's a high stakes game of poker right now."

GM declined to comment directly on the state of negotiations with the union. "We are committed to talks with our stakeholders and to meeting the February 17 deadline," GM spokesman Tony Sapienza said.

Chrysler said it was also committed to meeting the terms of the federal bailout, which requires both automakers to reduce factory labor costs and the amount owed to a UAW-affiliated trust fund.

"We continue to engage all of our stakeholder groups as we work through this process," Chrysler said in a statement.

The UAW is owed some $20 billion by GM, money pledged to a healthcare trust fund for retirees. It faces demands from the company that it surrender a claim on half of that amount in exchange for stock in a recapitalized GM.

But the union has balked at saddling retired workers with additional risk. GM's bondholders, who are being asked to write off some $18 billion in debt in exchange for GM stock, have also held out for better terms, people briefed on the talks have said.

GM has received $9.4 billion from the U.S. government and has been pledged another $4 billion if it can demonstrate it can be made viable at a time when U.S. auto sales are near 30-year lows.

Chrysler has been given $4 billion in emergency funding from the U.S. Treasury and is seeking another $3 billion.

If GM cannot win agreement from the UAW and creditors to reduce its debt, analysts say the Obama administration will face a politically tough choice: either pump billions of dollars more into the struggling automaker or steer it toward bankruptcy.

The stakes are similar at Chrysler, which faces continued scrutiny over the question of whether it has the scale and cash to survive the deep recession in the U.S. market on its own.

- - - - - - - -

"The UAW is owed some $20 billion by GM, money pledged to a healthcare trust fund for retirees."

Whoa. $20 billion? Hello bankruptcy.

Monday, February 16th:

DETROIT (Reuters) Negotiators for General Motors Corp and the United Auto Workers union, staring down a Tuesday deadline for the struggling automaker to submit a plan for its survival to the U.S. government, were making progress in high-stakes talks aimed at cutting GM's costs and debt, a person familiar with the matter said.

On Sunday, there were some signs that the two sides were making headway on the central question of how the cash-strapped automaker will fund a trust for retiree health care, according to a person briefed on the discussions.

Separately, GM's board of directors was scheduled to convene by conference call on Monday to review a draft plan of the automaker's revised restructuring plan due to be submitted to U.S. officials on Tuesday.

GM is seeking concessions from the UAW and its debtholders as required under the terms of its $13.4 billion loan package from the U.S. Treasury.

The UAW and GM declined to comment on the state of the negotiations, which are seen as central to GM's effort to reduce its debt and operating costs.

Talks between the union and the struggling automaker had broken off on Friday but resumed Sunday just before the White House announced its plans for how it will review GM's restructuring plan due on Tuesday

- - - - - - -

I am optimistic that they will come to terms and get more money.

Who in their right mind wouldn't?

Agree = $$ billions.

Disagree = $$ zero.

(Drama? Suspense?)

Tuesday:

GM seeks up to $30B in aid, to cut 47,000 jobs.

DETROIT General Motors Corp., presenting a dire outlook for the future, said Tuesday it may need $30 billion in total government financing to weather the economic downturn and would cut 47,000 jobs worldwide and shutter five more U.S. factories in a massive restructuring plan.

The automaker is already surviving on $13.4 billion in federal loans and said in a plan submitted to the Treasury Department that it would seek an additional $16.6 billion if economic conditions worsen, but it could achieve profitability in two years and fully repay its loans by 2017.

- - - - - - - - -

How many $$ billions are Toyota and Honda requesting?

(None? OMG... how are they doing it? One safe bet - GM will never figure it out.)

Check out GM's 30 year full benefits retirement package.

Let's all retire at 48!

(They couldn't have foreseen any problems with that right? R-I-G-H-T. )

February 25, 2009

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and other foreign based automobile manufacturers are not aggressively marketing their products right now in light of a possible 'consumer backlash' against them. They don't want to appear as though they are part of the problem (lol, they are the whole 'problem' though... for doing business too good).

But after the GM and Chrysler '$$ bailout' runs out (which is CERTAIN to occur) the U.S. automobile industry must still find a way to compete in a global economy.

Still burdened with hundreds of millions worth of liabilities (because the $$ bailout has no long term effect at all) the U.S. automobile companies will fold up, split up, become smaller microcosms of what they once were, and employ 1/10 the number they did before at 1/2 the income level.

(The foreign automobile manufacturers do not have to pay health insurance for their workers - the foreign governments cover these costs. This cost factor all by itself is a death blow to the U.S. industry.)

Short term - the U.S. public is excited because someone is doing something about the problem. (The American public has become huge worshippers of 'hope'. We have hope! Oh please give us hope! Pathetic.)

Long term - the problem will solve itself as the U.S. automobile companies slowly die, because anyone with even an ounce of business sense sees no way for these companies to compete in a global economy.

Sad.... but true.

(Anyone have any suggestions to keep it from happening? )

Ford expected to reopen Cleveland engine plant.

A Ford Motor Co. plant in suburban Cleveland which has been idle for nearly two years is about to begin making a new fuel-efficient engine for some of the company's 2010 model cars.

Ford has called an 11 a.m. EST Friday news conference to announce that its Cleveland Engine Plant No. 1 in suburban Brook Park, which has undergone a $55 million retooling since its last shutdown, will be the first manufacturing site to build its EcoBoost engines.

EcoBoost engines combine direct injection technology and turbo-charging for improved fuel efficiency and lower CO2 emissions. Ford says they can achieve up 20 percent better fuel and 15 percent lower CO2 emissions, compared with larger displacement engines, without sacrificing power.

The 3.5-liter, V-6 engines will be standard on the Ford Taurus SHO and optional on the Lincoln MKS and MKT, and Ford Flex cars.

"The launch of EcoBoost is the big milestone in Ford's commitment to deliver affordable fuel-efficient cars and trucks to millions of customers," said Barb Samardzich, vice president, Global Powertrain Engineering. "The EcoBoost V6 is going to achieve the fuel economy that our customers demand, while delivering even more of the performance that they want."

- - - - - - - -

Could be a good sign.

I have no problem with bailing out banks and automakers in and of itself. the problem I have is that most of the time the bailout funds are given with very few, if any strings attached. Here is our government throwing all this money at them on their word, which they later renege on. That first bailout for the banks should have come with specific mandates on how it was to be used, as should any future bailout plans. Republicans can whine all they want about fears of overregulation, but if we are bailing them out, I think they owe it to us to use it responsibly. What they effectively did was ask their parents for rent money then turned around and partied with it, and now they tell us it was necessary to keep all their "good executives" -- who? the ones that made this mess in the first place?

In all, I believe that bailouts may be necessary to prevent jobs from bleeding out worse than they already are, but any bailout should require payback, accountability, and subject the companies in question to complete and strict auditing for as long as they maintain an outstanding balance.

GM has doubts on future.

General Motors says it hopes to get additional loans from the government, saying there is "substantial doubt" about its ability to remain in business, CNNMoney reports. GM says failure to get sufficient funding would mean it "would not be able to continue as a going concern and could potentially be forced to seek relief under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code."

- - - - - - - -

In easier to understand words: as a true 'business' GM cannot survive.

Give them your tax dollars! Support their employees, they deserve your money!

let them go under,, GM's commercials that advertise Cadillac Escalades and that car-can't think of the name right off,them vehicles are thirty five thousands(35,000) and up.Average middle class can't afford vehicles at that price and those commercials are on the tv steady.Thats why I believe Ford is doing so well with the Focus and Fusion,good price and good gas mileage and our company makes the pistons for them...

GTR......I understand your concern that the people the money is given to must use it responsibly. However, I also feel that we don't want the government running any companies that are in the free enterprise system. So the answer is?? LOL....I don't think there is an answer......but, my kids didn't get an allowance automatically every Friday.....their chores had to be done already, not the promise they'd do them later.....and they had to be done right. Only then was the allowance given.

The current philosophy appears to be that ALL businesses can be profitable if the government provides taxpayers dollars as the profit.

The businesses can actually lose money, yet still turn a profit, with government assistance $$ to cover the losses and some extra $$ added in for profit.

The automobile industry will be just fine (under this new logic).

Genius thinking huh?

Ya know....I'm only a small business owner......but I don't get that logic......LOL

All I am saying, Robbi, is that if we are giving we are giving wall street welfare, we should treat them like they are on welfare..... and that includes restricting what they can spend certain funds on.... we do it with individuals... we call it food stamps. Don't get me wrong, our government should not take over these places, but if we are going to throw any more money at it, there should definitely be strings attached. If they give us their word, lets hold them to it and not accept any backpedaling or any excuse for it. If they go back on their word, we demand immediate return of funds or order them to cease and desist all unnecessary spending until funds are repaid. I don't want us to become a nation of big government but, on the same token, our government needs to show that its not joking around.

agreed gtr........

DETROIT The United Auto Workers Union says its members working for Ford Motor Co. have approved contract changes that include freezing wages and cutting other benefits in a move to aimed at helping the automaker remain competitive.

The approved agreement also ends the jobs bank program and lets Ford make payments in stock to a union-run trust for retiree health care.

The union says 59 percent of production workers and 58 percent of skilled-trades workers voted for the agreement.

Ford is not seeking government funding and is the first U.S. automaker to come to an agreement with the union.

And at that rate, I think Ford stands the best chance of surviving because it is strong enough to bend..... Odd, considering that old Henry himself was a controlling cheapskate.

Obama to auto industry: Want more help? Earn it.

WASHINGTON (AP) President Barack Obama says General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC and all those with a stake in their survival need to take more hard steps to help the struggling automakers restructure for the future.

Obama, in an interview with CBS' "Face the Nation" broadcast Sunday, said the companies must do more to receive additional financial aid from the government.

"They're not there yet," Obama said.

The president was set to announce a plan Monday for the government to provide more money in exchange for tough concessions from union workers, bondholders and others. Lawmakers were expected to get briefed on the plan Sunday evening.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Tougher concessions from union workers? Obama may be getting smart.

And Obama told Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM, to hit the road.

LOL, you know you're in trouble when the president of the USA tells you to quit your job.

Obama announces:

DIRECTOR OF RECOVERY

I am designating a new Director of Recovery for Auto Communities and Workers to cut through red tape and ensure that the full resources of our federal government are leveraged to assist the workers, communities, and regions that rely on our auto industry.

Edward Montgomery, a former Deputy Labour Secretary, has agreed to serve in this role. Together with Labour Secretary Solis and my Auto Task Force, Ed will help provide support to auto workers and their families, and open up opportunity in manufacturing communities. Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and every other state that relies on the auto industry will have a strong advocate in Ed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This 'Director of Recovery' will do for the auto industry, what Obama is doing for the nation in his own role as 'Director of Recovery'.

Oh boy! We can expect some fast results now!

(NOTE: the government has agreed to continue paying outrageously high auto worker union wages for the next 60 days, with YOUR tax dollars. They are labeling this money as 'working capital'... that means they take the money from people who work, and use it to capitalize the union members - working capital. You're not in a union? Sucks to be you, huh?)

By Thom Patterson

CNN

(CNN) -- Amanda Mezyk had developed a close bond with her employers' children as their live-in nanny, which is why it was so painful when her bosses told her she was being laid off.

Amanda Mezyk, 20, lost her live-in nanny job when the recession forced her employers to cut the family budget.

"I started crying and they kept repeating, 'I'm sorry, I'm sorry,'" Mezyk, 20, said about the day last November when her employers -- a Miami, Florida, plastic surgeon and a part-time dermatologist -- delivered the bad news.

"They sat me down in the living room -- where we usually would sit and talk about the kids -- and they told me that business was slow and they had to cut expenses."

As Mezyk began to realize that life as a virtual member of her employers' family was ending, she thought about the little girl and boy -- Delaney, 6, and Landon, 4 -- with whom she had grown so close during the past 2 years.

Later, Landon found Mezyk crying in her bedroom and asked her what was wrong. "I told him I had to go away for a little while, and that I would come visit," she said.

"I was sad because I had to let the kids go," she said. "I love them like they were mine. And I want to be a part of their lives for the long run."

Her job as a live-in nanny at a lavish home in an upper-class, upscale private community came with many perks that suddenly had disappeared. The insured car provided by her employers for personal and professional use was gone. Without a steady income, Mezyk wondered how she would pay her mounting $8,000 credit card debt.

There would be no more accompanying the family on all-expenses-paid vacations to the Bahamas, Italy and China. The layoff also put an end to Mezyk's annual paid weeklong vacations.

To survive, Mezyk has moved in with a great-aunt and uncle until she can decide on her next move.

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She is currently awaiting 'bailout funds' for people in her (the nanny) industry.

And she is exploring ways & means of starting a 'nanny union' so that in the future nannies will be laid off with full pay & benefits.

Wagoner, former head of GM, would not consider bankruptcy: Obama fired his ass.

New head of GM, first day on the job: states that bankruptcy is PROBABLE.

(Union members are sobbing & whining like newborn babies.)

C'mon tck You are acting like the unions are the only ones to blame.... If that were the case, Ford wouldn't have been successful in their negotiations.... GM, on the other hand has had a long history of riding a high horse... Instead of giving you (the customer) what you want, they have been trying to force what they think you should want down your throat. That's just one example of their desire to always be calling the shots... To cite another example, if Pontiac's engineering team never pulled the sly move of offering a 389 tri-power engine as an option for the LeMans back in 1964, the GTO never would have seen the light of day. Management never would have approved it as a model, so it was made as an option that fit right through the loophole. Now what GM needs to do is restructure its management style, and choose a more progressive leader, and now is the time to do it. They have been making stupid power plays throughout their history and now it stands to drive them under if they dont stop.... Want a more recent example? Who's idea was it to stop production on the Camaro? That was just absurd. And reincarnating legendary models like Impala as the V-6 FWD snoozefests that they are?.... Not much better.

Report: Obama Decides Bankruptcy Best for GM, Chrysler.

President is reportedly convinced that a negotiated bankruptcy is the best way for General Motors to restructure and become a competitive automaker.

FOXNews.com

Tuesday, March 31, 2009

President Obama is convinced that a negotiated bankruptcy is the best way for General Motors to restructure and become a competitive automaker, members of Congress and unnamed sources told Bloomberg late Tuesday.

Lawmakers briefed on the subject told the news agency Obama is also ready to let Chrysler face bankruptcy and be sold off piece-by-piece if it is unable to form an alliance with Italian automaker Fiat.

People familiar with the matter also told Bloomberg that Obama personally approved demanding General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner resign on Sunday.

The "quick and surgical" bankruptcy option that was said possible when the president declared the automakers' viability plans insufficient on Monday now appears to be inevitable, members of Congress and unnamed sources said.

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Wise choice.

DETROIT (AP) General Motors Corp. has softened its opposition to bankruptcy reorganization a little more. "If it's required, that's what we'll do," new chief executive Fritz Henderson said.

GM still prefers to avoid bankruptcy protection while restructuring, Henderson said in an interview broadcast Sunday.

President Obama and his auto industry task force indicated that bankruptcy protection "may very well be the best solution for the company to achieve these goals," Henderson told CNN's "State of the Union."

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This kind of talk is directed at the United Auto Workers - get smart, or else.

Let's see if the union members are smart enough to keep their jobs or too greedy.

Freedom, and the American dream, to me, always meant that I was free to work where ever I choose, and free to pursue the American dream of owning my own business if I choose.

But somewhere through the years freedom appears to have been misinterpreted as meaning workers should have a voice in the way someone elses business is run. I have always seen the reality you work for someone else, you do what they say, thats why they pay you the money THEIR business earns (not YOUR business).

I am seeing a great deal of whining and moaning these days, from people who do not have ANY ownership in a business, about how THEY think someone elses business should be run, for THEIR own benefit. What sort of lunacy level have we reached?

Mind your own business. Simple, concise, straightforward.

And if you work for someone else EXPECT to not work there forever. The business world does NOT owe you or anyone else a living. Dont cry, dont whine, dont get all Neanderthal and threaten violence (terrorism). Go get another job, or start your own business where you have full control.

The recent song & video by John Rich, "Shutting Detroit Down", depicts the helplessness, lack of thinking, uneducated, and downright pathetic nature of some American workers. Big tough workers are gonna start a fight, ooooh-rahhh, look at me, big strong man, I drink beer, I kick your ass.

"It just isn't fair..... waaaaaaaa!!" Crying to mama like little boys.

It turns my stomach to see how the once proud American worker has evolved into a pathetic whining helpless fool.

So hard to watch this transition of grown men going from workers to whiners. So hard.

tck with that attitude you are a prime candidate for "malicious obedience". Honestly, how would you feel if all your employees did exactly what you told them even though they saw something you overlooked that made following those orders catastrophic for your business? Would you fire them? They were just following your orders. That's what malicious obedience is and no employer in his right mind encourages that. Employees do not typically resort to those tactics unless their employer is a serious control freak more worried about his own ego than the success of his business. Why do you think so many companies extend the freedom of using judgement to their employees?

Pride often cometh before a fall!

We are all prime candidates for "malicious obedience", yourself included.

Very strong reports signaling GM is preparing for bankruptcy well before June 1, 2009.

Expectations are that GM management will pre-announce bankruptcy plans as an indication to see if the United Auto Workers union really truly wants to take the whole company down rather than make concessions.

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I like that new song "Shutting Detroit Down" by John Rich.

The song and video clearly illustrate how way too many ignorant fools believed they would have the same job forever, and that they could grossly overspend their $$ based upon the foolish belief that the job would always be there.

(Kind of pathetic that the song/video is originally intended to evoke sympathy from people for those who fail to plan for the future... but all I see in the video/song is a lack of foresight and complete stupidity on the part of the subjects.)

no bail out let them go out of bis,and hurry up about it

This whole situation is going to be good for America in the long run.

We have too damn many able-bodied grown men crying & whining like little girls.

The great American worker has turned into the pathetic American pussy.

Painful and shameful to observe, but adults need to become adults again.

As far as the auto industry goes, I'm not surprised that Chrysler needs another bailout, GM needs a bailout because it's become too big for its own good. What it should do is separate into several smaller automakers again instead of asking for a huge monolithic bailout. For too many years GM has gobbled up every little automaker in sight only to turn their product into another rebadged Chevy. These days, I think people are getting wise to them. GM has spent too many years trying to force their way up everyone's asses. Where they are right now is where they have had it coming. I think GM needs to start working on making better cars instead of trying to hide a car nobody can enjoy with legendary nameplates that were loved by many back when GM actually made cars that were exciting to drive. Back in the late 60's and early 70's while Chrysler failed to fool the insurance companies by low-balling horsepower figures on their hemis, GM succeeded in it by producing the Buick Gran Sport. It was the dark horse musclecar that the insurance companies would actually write a policy for. Why can't they go back to that kind of thinking?

As far as union negotiations are concerned, I think both GM and Chrysler should follow Ford's lead. They should "freeze base pay but eliminate cash bonuses and cost-of-living pay raises and eliminate the jobs bank in which workers get most of their pay while they're laid off". Im not all for just eliminating the jobs bank altogether, but why does it have to rest on the employer to pay for that? Couldn't the employee make contributions to that instead? After all, it would be to their own benefit to do that. In a way, jobs banks help to relieve the government from paying out so much unemployment, but that should be a fund that the employees, more than the employers contribute to.

Report: GM Prepares for 'Surgical' Bankruptcy

Monday, April 13, 2009

The Treasury Department is directing General Motors to prepare for a bankruptcy filing by June 1, despite GM's assertion that it could still reorganize without such a filing, The New York Times reported unnamed sources as saying on Monday.

Members of President Obama's automotive task force are said to have been in discussion with GM officials and its advisers in Detroit and Washington last week and are expected to continue this week.

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It appears that the nonsense is about to end.

GM will have to do business as a business, not as a government money dump.

GM Recalling 1.4 million Cars Over Potential Engine Fires.

Late 90s Through 00s Models Affected.

by Chris Paukert

Posted: 13 April 2009

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has just announced a major recall covering nearly 1.5 million General Motors passenger cars from the late 90's and early 2000s. The recall affects various Buick, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac models equipped with normally aspirated versions of GM's much-utilized 3800 3.8-liter V6.

Apparently, some of these engines can drop oil onto the exhaust manifold during hard braking. If that manifold has gotten hot enough and the oil dribbles below the heat shield, it can start a small fire. The flames can then engulf the plastic spark plug wire channel, potentially resulting in a full-on engine compartment fire.

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Ooooopsie...

Fiat CEO: Concessions or no Chrysler deal

MILAN Automaker Fiat Group SpA will walk away from a deal to take a 20-percent stake in Chrysler LLC if the U.S. automaker's unions don't agree to major cost cuts, Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne said in an interview published Wednesday.

Fiat and Chrysler are up against an April 30 deadline for Fiat to take a stake in the failing U.S. automaker in exchange for small car technology, but Chrysler first needs concessions from creditors and unions to ink the Fiat deal. If the Fiat alliance isn't finalized by then, the U.S. government has threatened not to provide any more aid and let Chrysler be sold off in pieces.

"Absolutely we are prepared to walk. There is no doubt in my mind," he said. "We cannot commit to this organization unless we see light at the end of the tunnel," Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne said in an interview published in the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Marchionne said there is a 50 percent chance the deal will fail because of lack of progress in labor negotiations in both the United States and Canada.

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Gosh... it almost seems like the only ones who want unions... are unions.

I wonder if the Chrysler union people will dumbass themselves out of a job.

Cheap Heads Every Valve Rattles Oil Leaks Every Turn = C.H.E.V.R.O.L.E.T

Need I say more?

HEY now, I am driving a C.H.E.V.R.O.L.E.T. It's 16 years old, and still runs. You won't get that with a ford or a dodge

LOL.... acronyms are hilarious.

Found On Road Dead?

UNwilling Idiots On No-negotiation?

"HEY now, I am driving a C.H.E.V.R.O.L.E.T. It's 16 years old, and still runs. You won't get that with a ford or a dodge"

----------------------------------

There is an estimated 300,000 Model A Fords (made 1928-1931) still on the road. Finding a Chevrolet from the same period that has not rotted out, is rare.

Statistics do not support your statement.

First On Race Day.........

My Ford Ranger is 21 years old and runs like a top........

"HEY now, I am driving a C.H.E.V.R.O.L.E.T. It's 16 years old, and still runs. You won't get that with a ford or a dodge" - DorkFishKatie

Actually I have a 1989 Ford and it runs great... In fact if it didnt use so much gas (its huge), I wouldnt even bother driving my 1990 Toyota daily. And I used to own GM cars... That is, until I bought my first Ford.

Actually HW youre right... I remember my 1986 chevy celebrity.... that thing was a total rust bucket.... After that I bought a Mercury and haven't looked back.

My grandma smoked well into her 90's and used to have a Chevy Nova.

(This basically means all people can smoke without fear of dying an early death, and a Chevy Nova is the best car.)

HA!

NO Tck.......you're wrong......you can only smoke and live IF you own a chevy nova.......it's the combination that made it possible........

(I quit smoking and driving a Chevy Nova because Al Gore said they cause global warming, lol.)

GM inches closer and closer to bankruptcy.... why?

Is it because GM can no longer compete as a business in the auto industry?

you know these auto makers moved our jobs to mexico, i say screw them! let'em go bankrupt.we can all drive nissans

funny thing is only GM and Chrysler are heading for bankruptcy, ford is not fairing to well but there in better shape, so much so they didnt take the bail out, they took a loan that they have already started paying back. my 2000 F-150 has 190,000 miles and still has all its original lights, the only major component to be replaced is an alternator.

"you know these auto makers moved our jobs to mexico, i say screw them! let'em go bankrupt.we can all drive nissans..."

Agree.

"you know these auto makers moved our jobs to mexico, i say screw them! let'em go bankrupt.we can all drive nissans" - john40

I say we can all drive toyotas and hondas..... theyre made in the USA

and hunter: gotta love them fords huh?

Chrysler, GM to Get More Government Aid.

The Obama administration will make about $500 million available to Chrysler through the end of this month as it seeks to reach an alliance with Fiat, and up to $5 billion through May to help General Motors (GM) restructure outside of bankruptcy, an independent oversight report on the Treasury Department's corporate rescue fund said on Tuesday.

Separately, the United Auto Workers (UAW) union urged its members to lobby the White House by phone or email to ensure that workers and retirees are treated fairly in negotiations at both companies on new concessions, which are considered vital for the automakers' to survive.

"We need President (Barack) Obama and his auto task force to stand up for the interests of workers and retirees in these restructuring negotiations," the union said in an appeal on its Web site to members.

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We need to be spending more tax dollars to support the union!

Long live the union! As long as the union gets theirs it is worth it!

Buy union, support union, give tax payer $$ to the union jobs!

(You're not in the union? Too bad, sucker! lol )

Chrysler wins union concessions.

UAW says it reaches agreement on modifications in collective bargaining accord needed to keep automaker out of bankruptcy.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The United Auto Workers announced Sunday that it has reached a tentative agreement on concessions in its contract with Chrysler LLC -- a key step in final efforts to help the automaker avoid bankruptcy.

The union, in a statement, said the agreement was reached with Chrysler, Fiat and the Treasury Department. It said the deal includes modifications to the union's 2007 collective bargaining agreement and the trust program dedicated to retiree health benefits. The UAW did not specify those concessions.

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Whoa... rational thinking... new tactic?

Chrysler latest: Union eyes majority ownership.

By David N. Goodman And Tom Krisher, Associated Press Writers.

STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. The United Auto Workers union will own 55% of a restructured Chrysler LLC and its retiree health care trust will get a seat on the board if union members vote to approve contract concessions this week.

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Nothing will make the union change its ways faster than if it owns the company, lol!

Union ownership of Chrysler looks closer and closer to reality.

My question - will the union strike against itself for wages & benefits?

LOL

The prospect of a union majority owned Chrysler looks closer and closer each day.

However... the union will receive limited (very limited) voting rights with only one (1) seat on the board. It will be hilarious to watch the reaction of the union people when they realize that they may indeed 'own' 55% of the company but they still have no voice in company operations.

So... if they go out on strike (which is their ONLY bargaining tool) they weaken their own company!

Great theater to watch, lol.

Chrysler won't repay bailout money.

An administration official confirms that a $4 billion bridge loan and $3.2 billion in bankruptcy financing won't be paid back by Chrysler following bankruptcy.

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$7.2 billion... wasted... down the drain... good job Mr. Obama.

Umm... usually what happens with bankruptcy is that the borrower is no longer required to repay their creditors. Bankruptcy is a negotiation where the creditors cut their losses with the realization that the borrower is unable to repay the loans. Contrary to some beliefs, refusing to file for bankruptcy is not doing creditors any favors. It only forces them to waste more time (which, in business, is money) trying to get money from someone who is unable to pay it back.

"Contrary to some beliefs, refusing to file for bankruptcy is not doing creditors any favors."

And 2 + 2 = 5 upon occasion too...?

Now tck lets not take that quote out of context. Im not encouraging everyone to charge everything they can get their hands on then claim bankruptcy. In fact, I believe that bankruptcy should only be a one-time exit strategy. Think about it from a financial institution's perspective. In many cases its less costly to write off a loss than to keep pressing on when you know it is going to get you nowhere, or in this case, nothing. Besides they probably can claim such losses as tax deductions anyways. Bankruptcy is merely an organized way of having someone in a position of neutrality (read bankruptcy court) forgive a borrower of his/her debt and tell a creditor "You have done all you can to get your money back so now you can write it off."

General Motors (GM: 1.1, -0.04, -3.51%) is rumored to be near a deal with the United Auto Workers Union that could help cut the companys costs by more than $1 billion annually.

This news is what GM has been waiting for as part of its quest to reduce its health care costs for retirees, which now stand at $20 billion.

The report, which appeared in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, said that although a plan has not been finalized, a deal could appear by next week at which time it would face approval from the UAWs 60,000 GM members.

Though the UAW is standing behind GM, it is unclear whether or not a plan would be approved given that the GM members of the union would all face pay cuts and an uncertain number of layoffs.

GM could potentially reduce its retiree health care costs by half, cutting them down to $10 billion. The other half would be offered in the form of a 39% stake in the newly formed GM, according to the report.

A GM spokesperson could not immediately be reached for comment.

According to the Journal, the U.S. Treasury is confident a massive reorganization of GM is on the horizon.

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Looks like UAW union is going learn what it's like to be in business.

(And they ain't gonna like that shit at all, lol. )

question: How do these automakers figure that reducing the number of dealers it does business with is gonna help their bottom line? Chrysler just closed down 789 dealerships and GM is fixin to close down nearly 1100. Pretty soon its gonna be "You can buy any American car you like as long as its a Ford".

My business opinion - too many GM dealers working against each other.

When I purchased a Chevy S10 pickup truck I had 6 dealers within a 40 mile radius I utilized to work against each other to see who was going to go the lowest price.

The sticker price was $16,500... I got the dealers down to $11,000 and I bought it.

(That is 1/3 off sticker price, unbelievable... but it just goes how much these dealers will work against each other to get the sale. Pathetic.)

The question I raise is this... what makes the remaining dealers feel they can sell GM vehicles? Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have kicked GM's ass in quality & performance, there will have to be some REAL BIG changes to make GM's products competitive on the world market. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are already lowering their prices, which puts GM even in more trouble.

It will be interesting.

No tck, it goes to show just how much they mark up their prices.... and btw "priced at invoice" doesn't mean you are getting it at cost.... the invoice price doesn't account for the factory to dealer incentives (kickbacks). Dealers can take close to 50% off the price on those cars. And as long as there are people who want cars that are cheap to fix, there will always be GM's being sold. Thats what they are known for... cheap to fix... because the boneyards are loaded with them.

(No one I know thinks 'priced at invoice' means you're getting it at cost. )

From msnbc.com, regarding GM & Chrysler:

"Both automakers say they have too many dealers for too few sales. For years they have wanted to get rid of underperforming showrooms to expand the market area of healthier dealers. The moves would give the stronger dealers higher profits and more money to spend on marketing, facilities and personnel, making them more competitive with Japanese automakers."

(And I agree, whatever they do it will be an uphill climb.)

actually I just think that GM should focus on building cars that people actually WANT to buy..... Chrysler is leaning in that direction and STILL having a hard time. My point is that people are wise to GM's cheap-out strategy. Thats why those who want high end luxury turn to Benz or Jaguar, while those who want excitement turn to BMW, VW, or Honda. All theyre gonna get from GM is an overdressed (and overpriced) Chevy. They need to get back to building cars people want to drive, and most notably, bring back the V8 powered, RWD cars. ... And not just for the Camaro and Corvette either. Heres an idea... how bout a v8 RWD Impala and Monte Carlo? Those would be a good place to start, but they gotta get the US government out of their way first.

Road and Track has a commentary in the June '09 issue that I think raises a valid point. GM and Ford both have sizeable overseas operations; however, they are not making many of those vehicles widely available in North America. Instead of focusing on building platforms that are unique to North America, they should consider bringing more of their off-shore models into the North American market.

Big week for GM and Chrysler.

Supposedly by June 1st both of these auto giants will be declaring bankruptcy.

I have mixed thoughts as to either of these companies chances of survival in the free world market. Quite possibly too many old ideas and too much resistance to change.

Time will tell.

One thing that needs to go for sure are ignorant uneducated goons standing in front of factories with baseball bats terrorizing people who WANT to work.

Say good bye to that retardism right now.

This just in. Seems maybe GM might be able to salvage something from the mess it created if this plan comes off cleanly.

_______________________________________________________________________________

By Madeline Chambers and Gernot Heller

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany reached a landmark deal with Canadian auto parts group Magna, General Motors and governments to save carmaker Opel from the imminent bankruptcy of its U.S. parent, German leaders said on Saturday.

Finance Minister Peer Steinbrueck told journalists waiting outside Chancellor Angela Merkel's offices for the six-hour meeting that a comprehensive deal had been agreed.

"I can tell you that a deal has been reached," Steinbrueck said shortly after 2 a.m. He added that the deal included bridge financing for Opel worth $1.5 billion euros ($2.1 billion) and a trustee model for the German carmaker.

Siegfried Wolf, the co-chief executive of Magna, cautioned there were still details to be ironed out.

"In five weeks' time we should have the formal signing of the contract," he said.

Hesse state premier Roland Koch said, for example, the state assemblies in both Hesse and North Rhine-Westphalia -- two of four states with Opel plants -- would still have to endorse it. He said he hoped that could be completed by Sunday.

Leaders of all four states have endorsed the deal.

Steinbrueck said U.S. Treasury representatives at the meeting had also endorsed the agreement.

Economy Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg renewed his reservations about risks involved with the rescue but added there would also have been risks if Opel declared bankruptcy.

Magna and Opel had presented their plan to senior German officials and representatives of the U.S. Treasury to win their support and ensure the release of the financing that Opel desperately needs to survive over the coming months.

An agreement between GM and Magna is a first step toward securing the future of Ruesselsheim-based Opel, which has been under GM's control for the past 80 years and traces its roots in Germany back to the 19th century.

"I think this is the start of a new future for Opel, for the workers, the company and the brand," GM Europe head Carl-Peter Forster told journalists. He added, however, that there would still be some hard negotiations on the fine-print ahead.

The German government has been scrambling to safeguard Opel's future before GM files for bankruptcy, a step which is expected to come by Monday.

A first round of talks in Berlin collapsed amid mutual recriminations on Thursday morning, prompting the German government to set a new round of negotiations for Friday.

Italian carmaker Fiat, Magna's main rival in the battle for Opel, pulled out of talks, leaving the door open for Magna, a company that was started by Austrian emigre Frank Stronach in a Toronto garage nearly half a century ago.

Magna plans to use Opel to push into Russia, Europe's fastest-growing car market before the economic crisis hit.

The company, which has 70,000 employees in 25 countries, supplies components and systems to many of the world's leading carmakers, including fuel tanks and radiator grilles for the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and fuel filters for the BMW X3.

LIFE GOES ON, SAYS FIAT

Speaking to reporters in Montreal, Fiat Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne had earlier appeared to concede defeat to Magna, saying his focus was on the company's deal with Chrysler.

"If the Opel transaction is not available to Fiat, life will move on," he said.

A stumbling block had been U.S. Treasury opposition to German demands that Opel assets be temporarily placed in a trust to protect them from GM creditors. Germany now will release the bridge financing to tide Opel over until a merger is completed.

Based in Ruesselsheim near Frankfurt, Opel employs 25,000 staff in four German plants.

It is part of a GM Europe operation that employs more than 50,000, with car manufacturing plants in Spain, Poland, Belgium and Britain, where Opel cars are sold under the Vauxhall brand, as well as engine and parts sites such as Aspern near Vienna.

Like its parent GM, Opel has suffered acutely from the worldwide economic slowdown. Its fate is being followed closely in Germany, where the auto industry remains a potent symbol of the country's postwar recovery and export-driven economy.

Merkel faces an election in September and was keen to ensure a deal that would avert large job losses.

(Additional reporting by Christiaan Hetzner in Frankfurt, John McCrank in Montreal, Ian Simpson in Milan; Writing by Erik Kirschbaum and Noah Barkin, editing by Carol Bishopric)

_____________________________________________________________________________

And on another note: this is my 301st post! Do I earn another star? LOL

June 1, 2009

NEW YORK (AP) -- General Motors has filed for bankruptcy protection as part of an Obama administration plan to shrink the automaker to a sustainable size and give a majority ownership stake to the federal government.

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BANKRUPT...!

First order of 'business' - change the name to Government Motors...?

GMs Bankruptcy YOU Are the Biggest Loser.

By Peter Ferrara

Director of Entitlement and Budget Policy, Institute for Policy Innovation/General Counsel, American Civil Rights Union

With the federal government emerging from the GM bailout owning 60% of the company, the new GM will be run by the politics of the Obama Administration, not economics. That means it will be run to serve the interests of the UAW and the environmentalist groups that are major players in Obamas political coalition, not consumers.

Taxpayers will just get the bill. And dont expect that to end with the $50 billion the Feds have already committed to the company (apparently without legal authorization, Congress approved TARP funds for banks, remember?).

The new politically driven GM will never return to profitability, and will stay alive only with a permanent taxpayer pipeline.

Already the UAW has rightly bragged that its workers have given up nothing in wages and health and pension benefits. And who is going to say no to UAW demands at the next contract negotiation? The politicians in Washington?

They will just send the bill to the taxpayers again, hoping they wont notice. Are you going to oppose a good deal for the working people of Detroit?

- - - - - - - - - -

GM (Government Motors) will always be profitable now with unlimited tax dollars for 'support'.

GM is offering $20,000 cash and a $25,000 car voucher to production workers who decide to retire with their benefits.

For skilled-trades workers, the cash portion of the retirement package is $45,000 with the same car voucher.

For those not eligible to retire, GM also is offering more cash to walk away and sever all ties with the company, along with the $25,000 car voucher.

Employees with less than 10 years could get $45,000. Those with at least 10 years but less than 20 are being offered $80,000. For those with 20 years or more, its $115,000.

Those with 28 or 29 years at GM are being offered a bridge to retirement, with the company providing a monthly gross wage of $2,850 or $2,900 until qualifying for retirement.

Although GM has offered a series of separation packages since 2006, this one is in conjunction with the companys Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. This program begins June 9, and employees will have until July 24 to accept one of the offers.

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I was wondering were my tax dollars were going. (Sorry to all of you suckers who don't work for GM.)

LOL

Penske-Saturn deal could change how cars are sold

By James R. Healey, USA TODAY

Roger Penske's pending purchase of the Saturn brand from General Motors(GM) could be the beginning of the biggest change in how cars are sold since the dawn of the auto industry early last century.

Penske can shop globally for low-cost automakers able to build to his specifications quickly, fielding Saturns built in, say, China or India and developed for half the cost and in half the time it would take traditional automakers.

PENSKE'S PLAN: 'We're going to build a Saturn team'

Fast turnarounds would let Saturn exploit emerging trends sooner. Lower costs could keep it profitable in brutal times.

The deal, expected to close in October, creates "a new business model in this industry," says Jack Nerad, market analyst at car-shopping service kbb.com. "The distribution side of the business controls the brand, and manufacturing is conducted by one or more subcontractors."

"What if we're first? What if we win this race" to field must-have, low-cost, fuel-efficient vehicles, asks Marcy Maguire, CEO of Maguire Automotive Group, with an enthusiasm rare lately from beleaguered dealers. She owns Saturn dealerships in Toms River and Bordentown, N.J.

Maguire, a director of the National Automobile Dealers Association, foresees "fresh, distinctive" Saturns "from whatever area of the world" that can build to suit. "We live in a global community," she says. Buyers don't seem to care who makes a car if it suits their needs.

"It truly is revolutionary," she says.

Such a setup would hurt the United Auto Workers union here initially, though Penske says he'd eventually like to make some Saturns in the USA.

No price was disclosed for the deal, announced Friday. GM will provide Saturn with Aura sedans and Vue and Outlook SUVs until 2011. The deal rescues 350 Saturn dealers, who had been expecting to go out of business, and, for now, 13,000 jobs.

Penske, known for his winning IndyCar race team and a big truck-leasing operation, is also a large-scale auto dealer and is U.S. distributor of the Smart car.

Selling Saturn to the respected Penske "is like finally finding your puppy a good home," Nerad says.

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Now that sounds like a successful plan for the auto industry. No 'bailouts'...!

Bailout = rewarding a business for doing a BAD job in business.

"GM is offering $20,000 cash and a $25,000 car voucher to production workers who decide to retire with their benefits." tck_beachbum

oh the government will be sure to get their share of taxes off their pensions... That incentive is more than likely aimed at those who take early retirement. Those who take early retirement often get hit with big tax penalties. And as for the bailouts? Bush tried bailing out the average taxpayer but the evil oil cartel swindled us out of it all. You think that if the government gives us another stimulus check that we won't be paying $4 a gallon for gas again?

I wouldn't want to be living with the knowledge that the nifty buy-out I accept will be taxed to death. Is there not a way that they can perhaps take their buy-outs in the form of bonds or RRSPS that they can't touch for "x" number of years and then only if they have re-trained to enter other areas of the workforce?

Don't these manufacturers have analysts to provide them with sales projections so that they're not over-producing? I'd guess a surplus of unsalable inventory has got to be playing a role in the current woes.

__________________________________________________________

By Tom Krisher, The Associated Press

DETROIT - General Motors Corp. has decided to extend the temporary summertime closure of seven factories including its car plant in Oshawa, Ont., because widespread temporary shutdowns will not be enough to control a burgeoning supply of some models, the company said Tuesday.

GM spokesman Chris Lee said the company will add up to four weeks to temporary shutdowns at the Detroit-Hamtramck; Lansing, Mich., Grand River; Orion Township, Mich.; Oshawa; Lordstown, Ohio; Shreveport, La.; and Spring Hill, Tenn., assembly plants.

The closures might not be the end of GM's efforts to keep inventory down because of the slumping U.S. auto market, Lee said Tuesday.

"We recognize our product output needs to be adjusted on a regular basis," Lee said. "We've been doing it now for 18 months, unfortunately, on a very regular basis. So by all means it's possible."

GM announced in April that it would temporarily shutter 13 assembly plants in the U.S. and Mexico - some for 11 weeks - laying off nearly 24,000 workers to pare back a bloated inventory.

The latest round of closures, announced at the factories this week, range from one added week at the Oshawa factory to four additional weeks at the Lansing Grand River plant. Most of the factories will go down for three added weeks in July.

In addition, the full-sized van plant in Wentzville, Mo., will see some shift reductions and then removal of the second shift starting on Aug. 10.

Canadian Auto Workers president Ken Lewenza said the decision was just one more signal that the auto industry continues to be in a declining situation relative to sales.

"This is purely for inventory, purely as a result of slow sales. There's some people saying there's light at the end of the tunnel but we're not feeling it at the CAW," Lewenza said.

"Today, all of the manufacturers are experiencing the same kind of challenges, so I don't see it as a problem in isolation at General Motors, it's industry-wide."

GM has cut its Canadian workforce heavily, with the recent closure of a pickup truck plant in Oshawa eliminating 2,600 jobs. It now employs about 7,500 hourly workers in Canada, and plans a shutdown next year of a transmission plant in Windsor which employs 1,400.

Because the daily selling rate for GM vehicles is down due to the slumping U.S. market, it has a 92-day supply of cars and trucks, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank. That's down from a 123-day supply at the end of March. Industry analysts say a 60-day supply is optimal to provide enough of a selection, but not so much that large incentives will be needed to move vehicles.

GM's sales are down 42 per cent through the first five months of the year, while the overall U.S. market is down 37 per cent, according to Autodata Corp.

The Lansing Grand River plant, which makes the Cadillac STS and CTS luxury sedans, gets the longest shutdown of the latest round because inventories of its products are high. According to Ward's, GM has a 106-day supply of the STS and a 98-day supply of the CTS.

GM has been operating under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection since June 1 as it seeks to reorganize and shed unwanted assets. So far it has received about US$20 billion in loans from the U.S. government. It has been promised a total of US$60 billion, including approximately US$9.5 billion from the Canadian and Ontario governments.

-With files from Canadian Press reporter Kristine Owram in Toronto

bump

Latest news - if you bought a gas guzzler years ago you will receive a $4500.00 reward.

Those of you who purchased a more economical vehicle... too bad, dummy.

Query: How is this "cash for clunkers" thing going to help new car sales?

Most people who own clunkers own them, not because they want them, but because they cannot afford the attractive new car. Besides, in this economy, the fact that banks don't want to loan out money stands to be an additional reason why new car sales are down. As for me, I dont want to finance no damn car anyways. The warrantees only last 3 years and after that, they break down and you still owe a balance on the car...... It's all a clever scheme by the automakers and finance corperations to keep you buying new cars and in debt for the rest of your life. Thanks, Mr Obama, but I think I'll keep my old V8 Ford, its 100% paid for and I happen to like it.

I think you are exactly correct, it's all about the auto industry at the expense of consumers.

Sadly... it will be our tax dollars buying clunkers ($4500.00 each) to be destroyed.

More financial Obamacide. Dumb.

Id rather see them be scrapped than destroyed. Plenty of good parts on those cars can be used for repairing the ones people decide to keep. Im sure the boneyards will be happy to take them.

when i can't pay my bills, nobody bails me out, dammit!!!

hey tck...when you gonna rock my world??? oops.......sorry..............emily is drinking again............i didn't mean it........unless you gonna do it......hahhhahaha

Hilarious!

Chrysler & GM have effectively received permission from the Obamacide administration to both receive bankruptcy protection.

GM will officially stop doing business as 'the old GM', and issue a brand new IPO (Initial Public Offering) of 'new GM' stock, under a new corporation.

All current GM stock is worthless, all debts will go unpaid.

The new GM and the new Chrysler have been 're-born'.

Personal opinion: both of these companies are in big trouble because trying to play catch-up with Toyota (and other established auto makers) will prove to be nearly impossible in today's market.

Toyota, and the other established companies, will subtly and quietly under-price the new GM and the new Chrsyler products into a no profit situation. Not to mention the government 'green regulations' that GM and Chrysler have never dealt with (but Toyota has already built in).

Toyota can afford to make less money, they'll put the screws to the competition.

Just my opinion - It could be an interesting scenario to watch evolve.

July 15, 2009:

"Bob Lutz, GM's new image chief, says he'll 'tell it like it is'..."

Big deal.

(If the new 'image chief' thinks that saying he will tell the truth is a stunning announcement, the whole company is in bigger trouble than we thought, lol.)

If Bob Lutz, the new GM image chief, tells it like it is...

... why do they need an image chief?

Won't we all see it 'as it is'... if that is the way it is?

(Image Chief = someone trying to falsely enhance an image.? )

I was reading an article about some poor guy who lost his job on the auto industry assembly line, he was 'forced' to go to college and get a nursing R.N. degree.

He now works as a critical care nurse R.N. but has a tough time making ends meet due to the $20,000 loss in salary he 'has' to accept.

He was making $70,000 performing unskilled high school education labor on the assembly line, now he 'only' makes $50,000 as a nurse.

Solution? I think all nurses (and former assembly line workers) should unionize and refuse to work for less than $70,000 per year.

And if anyone else tries to take a job for less than $70,000, they should be beaten with baseball bats by the union members.

It just isn't fair for anyone to have to take a $20,000 pay cut.

Emerging fact: GM cannot survive without more gov't dollars (YOUR tax money).

In order to compete with Ford and foreign automakers GM will need free money.

(Does your business and/or industry receive free money for nothing? )

When all this about the car industry was goin on a while back, didn't congress criticise the auto company bosses for flying to Washington on private jets? I said it before, you want to give the economy a boost, give these influence peddlers a year off with pay. Let us have a rest from these hypocrits.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124960404730212955.html

spart, we all know that politicians are a bunch of hypocrites. lets just look at that auto industry crisis for what it actually was.... those execs did screw up by flying in their private jets to washington.... Anyone in touch with reality should have known they would have been taken about as seriously as someone who rides to the welfare office to apply for food stamps in the back of a limousine.

And besides, the politicians NEED private jets to fly around in...... If you were a politician would you feel secure taking a commercial flight?

"And besides, the politicians NEED private jets to fly around in...... If you were a politician would you feel secure taking a commercial flight?" GTR

In this season of *super polarization*, hell no! I would want to land with the same body parts as I took off with!

Seems to be a big push on new versions of retro 'muscle' cars.

Mustangs, Dodges... sure they are selling right now but aren't they gas guzzlers?

They are the cars that everyone wants, tck. But they can't save the industry. The "Big Three" need to get back to basics and start building entry-level cars that have a mass appeal. Look at all the Civics, Sentras, Versas, Corollas and the like out there. They are the best-selling cars out there for a reason, and the Big Three have nothing that compares in terms of appeal, quality or value.

GM to form China venture, invest $293 million.

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - General Motors said on Sunday it has agreed to set up a light commercial vehicle production venture with major Chinese automaker FAW Group, with total investment of 2 billion yuan ($293 million).

Vehicles made at the venture will carry the FAW brand and will focus on supplying the China market, but they could be exported under a GM brand through the Detroit automaker's global network in the future, Wale said.

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American manufacturing is being "Shanghai'd" by GM.

The vehicles can be built & shipped here cheaper than they can be made here.

(Too many McDonald's Happy Meals and beer guts to satisfy using union labor. )

Taxpayers Face Heavy Losses on Auto Bailout.

Congressional Oversight Panel report says most of the $23 billion initially provided to General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC late last year is unlikely to be repaid.

Best 'bailout' option for GM would be to fire all of it's overpaid under-worked terrorist union employees and sell out to Toyota.

(Trouble is... Toyota would just say, "If we want GM's junk, garbage, and bullshit we'll just wait until they have to give it away at auction pricing."

DETROIT General Motors Co. said Wednesday it would shut down its Saturn brand after an agreement with Penske Automotive Group Inc. to acquire it fell apart.

Penske, citing concerns of whether it could continue to supply vehicles after a manufacturing contract with GM ran out, ended talks with GM Wednesday to acquire the brand.

GM CEO Fritz Henderson said in statement that Saturn and its dealership network will be phased out.

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Nobody wants GM's junk even at auction prices.

Sure glad GM got "bailed out", huh?

(Bailed out of what?)

Now here you are talking about the unemployment rate and you're saying that we shouldn't of bailed out GM? Which is it???

Ive lost my job due to the government! They wanted everyone to buy houses and......... Unemployment here i come!

Giving away money to a company with failing business practices does nothing to promote job creation.

It is just a temporary action very similar to free unemployment money.

Thousands of permanent jobs would be lost, not just through GM but through distributors as well. Talk about job losses... that would be a disaster. Let an american car company, one of the few things MADE in america, fail? Whose side are you on?

Another thing is GM has pulled itself up and has done great in recent months. Also, I'm not sure you understand how much people recieve for unemployment, about half of what they were making, maybe a little less. Saving this company was the right thing to do.

"Saving this company was the right thing to do."

Time will tell. Who says it was 'saved'...?

(My forecast is that GM and it's overpriced union junk won't survive.)

Detroit: Too broke to bury its dead.

At 1300 E. Warren St., you can see the plight of Detroit. Inside the Wayne County morgue in midtown, 67 bodies are stacked in the freezer. Neither the families nor the county can afford to bury the corpses. Albert Samuels, chief investigator for the morgue, said he has never seen anything like it during his 13 years on the job, CNNMoney reports.

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Maybe the United Auto Workers Union members will come to the rescue.

(Wait... what's in it for them? Nope... they aren't gonna help.)

For one thing, Josh, many GM cars (as well as many Fords) are actually made in Canada and have been for the past 20 years or more. I'm not gonna play "shoulda, woulda, coulda" but I find it hard to sympathize with people who have banded together to ensure that they receive on average, $70 per hour in wages and benefits while I am struggling to take home even 10% of that. It is ridiculous what these people are making, and they actually design them to start breaking down before people like you (I only exclude myself because I do not buy new cars) finish paying for them. Why? So they can convince you to sign your life away on another crappy new car from them that is only going to do the same thing. At least the Japanese automakers have the brains to build cars here in the US and design them to last. So many people I talk to go around saying "Chevys are the best", but really, they're only so good because they're so cheap to fix as there are so many in the junkyards because they are always breaking down. Fords, on the other hand, may cost more to fix when they do break down, do so a lot less. And GM did not pull itself up, it had to be taken over by the federal government, hence the new nickname Government Motors. And as for these union workers on unemployment? They are still collecting more than twice what I make, so do I feel sorry for them? mmmmmmmmm nope!

LOL, this is America man. That's the dream. We need to keep that dream alive. Since when did GM build shitty cars? I think that's a crock of shit. I had an impala, NEVER had a problem. I had a silverado, NEVER had a problem. People whos cars breakdown are from them driving like idiots and not maintaining the car properly. I have friends who haven't had an oil change in 5 years... WTF?! The truth is that American makes great cars, always have, always will. My grandfather has a old ford pick up with over 500,000 miles. I work in an industry (HVAC) in which people have to take care of their furnaces or boilers in order for them to work properly. It's the same with cars. If you want to make union money, go work for one. Simple problems have simple answers. Let's keep OUR automakers in America. Why is it the workers fault for collecting unemployment???? Did they ask to lose their job?? Your full of it man (I say that with respect).

Another thing, GTR, if you were to lose your job tom. and you had no other income, what would you do? It's entirely possible. Would you NOT sign up for unemployment? When you have to eat, you would, and you damn well know it.

"We need to keep that dream alive."

Josh - you dream, I'll focus on reality.

I now have a much better understanding of your thought (dream) process.

(No one said we wouldn't accept unemployment. The premise is that people cannot stay on unemployment forever, the money will run out, and the government needs to do something to encourage permanent job growth without constantly throwing more and more money into the unemployment situation. The GM bailout provided substantial dollars toward union worker unemployment, which is far greater that what gtr, you, or I would ever receive. These union crooks even had a 'jobs bank' situation where they got laid off with full pay and benefits, lol.)

Are too many people are focusing on the new American dream of getting paid for not working?

The Congressional Oversight Panel has already said taxpayers will not see most of the $81 billion that they put into the American car industry. The $14.3 billion put into Chrysler is more and more likely to be lost completely. The biggest single loser if Chrysler cannot survive is the UAW which owns 55% of the company.

Chrysler sales are now running at the rate of 750,000 a year. It probably does not have the capital to wait through another year of low US car sales with a market share that is almost certainly to stay below 8%. It does not have models tailored to the current market tastes. Chrysler is going out of business. The company just hasnt made it official.

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If the UAW is majority owner with 55% of Chrysler, who can they extort money from, each other?

Unions know nothing except ways to not work and get paid for it.

Like Pirhanna fish in a net, watch them chew the flesh off of each other's bones.

Someone shut off the emergency generators when they leave, the electricity will have been long turned off. Sad that Obama wasted money on this foolish venture, just sad. What an utter failure that was doomed from the start. Union workers owning a company, lol, and we bought it for them!

Josh I am not blaming workers for anything.... I am just saying that I do not sympathize with those who are collecting much more than I am earning. I do not see why our tax dollars should have gone to an automaker that has clearly spent the past 50 years arrogantly making stupid moves all because its upper management was on a power trip. When John DeLorean became an executive for GM, he figured that out rather quickly and, in turn, resigned. Even if you consider legendary monikers like the Pontiac GTO, they never would have seen the light of day had they been submitted to management for approval as models. The engineering teams knew this so they passed them through under the radar as option packages for existing models. The Camaro would never have even been prototyped had it not been for Ford making money hand over fist on the Mustang. Remember, the Chevy Camaro came out in 1967 -- three years after Ford introduced the Mustang -- so you know they were caught totally off guard. As for my feelings about GM cars, I haven't liked any of them since I bought my first Ford and its pretty obvious why. All GM has been offering these days are resurrected models that only pale in comparison to what they once were. You think what you want of them but to me CHEVEROLET will always stand for Cheap Heads Every Valve Rattles, Oil Leaks Every Turn.

GM hits a big speed bump.

The collapse of the Saturn sale and glitches in the Opel and Hummer deals are signs that GM faces a difficult turnaround after a quick bankruptcy.

In the past week, the company's plans to sell its Saturn brand to auto retailer Penske Auto Group fell through, forcing GM to start winding down a network of about 350 dealerships.

But that's not the only post-bankruptcy problem for GM. Its plans to sell Hummer to a Chinese industrial company missed a target date of closing by Sept. 30.

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What's the problem?

Purchases of all divisions included contracts with union labor. You cannot buy the division without buying the labor union contract (nails in the coffin).

(Let the divisions die a natural death rather then buy them with the union stink attached.)

Chrysler Shelves Plan to Sell Electric Car in 2010.

Chrysler has disbanded a team of engineers dedicated to rushing a range of electric vehicles to showrooms and dropped ambitious sales targets for battery-powered cars set as it was sliding toward bankruptcy and seeking government aid.

The move by Fiat SpA marks a major reversal for Chrysler, which had used its electric car program as part of the case for a $12.5 billion federal aid package.

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Take the money and run, lol...!!!

Obama ran his election based on 'hope'.

Then he gave Chrysler $12.5 billion based on 'hope'.

I 'hope' the taxpayers are happy.

GM reports $1.2B loss, says it shows progress.

DETROIT General Motors Co. says it lost $1.2 billion from the time it left bankruptcy protection through Sept. 30, far better than it has reported in previous quarters and a sign that the auto giant is starting to turn around its business.

The company also says it will begin repaying $6.7 billion in U.S. government loans with a $1.2 billion payment in December. It could pay off the full amount by 2010, five years ahead of schedule, but the money will come from funds loaned by the government.

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GM lost money, and they're going to begin repaying the gov't loan. But they're going to repay the loan with money they borrowed in the first place.

Obamanomics? Obamacide?

Read that final paragraph and explain it to me.