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I believe the current system is 'broken' and all Americans need affordable health care.

Will there be problems? Absolutely, no system will be perfect.

Any comments?

Several years ago I had a bad fall and wound up in the hospital with a shattered patella. After the surgery I needed 8 days in the hospital. As required, the hospital sent me a statement detailing what they were billing OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan). The total was over $8,000! There is no way I could have afforded that out of pocket at the time.

I think that once you get a good health care system you'll not have many people objecting to it.

Notice how all these government programs are in crisis? Social Security... Medicare.... Medicaid.... Think about the possibility of taking all the folks on medicare and medicaid and combining them into a large scale group policy with coverage specified by the government. The money they take out of your paycheck for that would probably go further in a private company than within the government due to reduced operating costs alone. It would eliminate some probably overpaid government positions, easing the burden on taxpayers by transferring the administrative responsibilities to an entity more equipped and qualified to handle them.

I believe everyone should have 'free' health insurance or no one should have 'free' health insurance.

Right now we pay for ALL of the politicians to have the BEST HEALTH INSURANCE PLANS available, with the highest care possible.

Regular people should NOT have to take out a 'mortgage' on their hospital stay.

Politicians shouldn't be held in higher regard than everyone else.

Ask any politician is there is a problem and they'll say, "Not with my coverage there isn't..."

Just my opinion.

WASHINGTON (AP) Consumers in the United States may have to hand over nearly $2 more for a case of beer to help provide health insurance for all. Details of the proposed beer tax are described in a Senate Finance Committee document that will be used to brief lawmakers Wednesday at a closed-door meeting.

Taxes on wine and hard liquor would also go up. And there might be a new tax on soda and other sugary drinks blamed for contributing to obesity. No taxes on diet drinks, however.

Beer taxes would go up by 48 cents a six-pack, wine taxes would rise by 49 cents per bottle, and the tax on hard liquor would increase by 40 cents per fifth. Proceeds from the new taxes would help cover an estimated 50 million uninsured Americans.

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Sounds good to me, let's extra-tax each pack of cigarettes $1.00 too.

I'm beginning to think Obama is Bush-lite after all...

The smokers and drinkers are a group of people who severely weigh down the health care system, right?

Neither smoking or drinking promotes good health.

(Besides, I wanted to find something that Obama does I can agree with!)

In my opinion the chances of 'most everyone quits drinking or smoking' is equal to the chance that IF most everyone DOES quit drinking and smoking, then health care costs across the board would be so low that everyone could afford health care.

So, once again in my opinion, I'd love to see it all happen just to find out how much drinking & smoking has an effect on the overall health care system.

(To be honest though I do NOT believe most people would quit smoking and/or drinking. They will pay the extra costs.)

And yes, when tax rates are increased to a certain point, the result is actually LESS revenue. This is a principle that every economics student learns as the Laffer Curve (google it).

Check that one Shop... these are the EXACT people that do not pay for their health care, and the exact people who do raise the costs for all of us.

People I see on Social Security disability, and/or on welfare, smoke & drink & get free health care... ALL at the taxpayers expense.

(Tax junk foods? I'm all for it, after the booze & smokes go after the junk next.)

Watch for California and Illinois to lead the way, and other states will follow.

Associated Press, Lansing -- Michigan's unemployment rate rose to 12.9 percent in April, its highest mark since late 1983.

The state said Wednesday that Michigan's seasonally adjusted jobless rate was pushed up by large job losses in manufacturing and construction.

Last month's jobless rate was the highest in Michigan since unemployment reached 13 percent in November 1983. Michigan's jobless rate in March, 12.6 percent, already was highest in the nation.

The national unemployment rate rose from 8.5 percent in March to 8.9 percent in April.

"Michigan's difficult labor market patterns continued in April," Rick Waclawek, director of the state's Bureau of Labor Market Information and Strategic Initiatives, said in a statement.

A year ago, Michigan's April unemployment rate was 7.9 percent. But it has been rising fairly steadily ever since and is projected to go even higher, in part mirroring problems in the domestic auto industry.

Economists from the Michigan Treasury Department and the House and Senate Fiscal agencies last week reached a consensus that state unemployment could average as much as 14 percent this year and 15.3 percent in 2010.

Michigan lost about 38,000 nonfarm payroll jobs in April. About 22,000 of those jobs were in manufacturing and another 9,000 were in construction. About 3,000 jobs were lost in retail trade.

Government was the only broad employment category to add jobs in Michigan last month, with a net increase of about 2,000 jobs.

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Higher taxes to pay for all of the medical care needed by the unemployed?

Check out that last line by the way, lol - what pays for those jobs? YOUR taxes.

What tax base will they get their $$$ from??

has it ever? Actually I can remember paying over 5 bucks for a pack of Marlboros a few years ago. It didn't help me quit.... just took more of my money away.

Here we are just four months into this administration and im already tired of the Democrats' "throw more money at it and collect more taxes" idea of a solution to our problems. What we need to do is solve the problems not just feed them.

That's simple business economics.

Also - tax the items that cause health problems, use the money to pay for the health problems.

As I pointed out above, taxes on tobacco and alcohol are (here in Canada) more than enough to pay for everyone's health care, but the government continues to push the lie that taxes are going up because of the costs to health care. In truth, I doubt that very much of it gets spent on health care.

Then again, I suppose that expecting any government to be up front about its motives for anything is a pipe dream (thinking of Bush's search for WMDs for instance).

It boggles my mind that "government" is just people.... WHY can't we get some we can trust?

I know that as a former smoker & drinker I went without both on a lot of occasions because I simply didn't have the money to buy it.

(I won't hold Hillary Clinton, or any one individual, responsible for authorizing the Iraq War in an effort to search for WMDs. If I felt she, or any one individual, did it all on her/their own I would be kind of retarded, lol. )

I feel an open announcement that taxes on all tobacco products will rise each year is a good idea.

By Seung Min Kim, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON The average U.S. family and their employers paid an extra $1,017 in health care premiums last year to compensate for the uninsured, according to a study to be released Thursday by an advocacy group for health care consumers.

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One reason why national health insurance might be a good idea.

That means WE all pay for their care.

With rising deductibles, co-payments and other expenses driving up out-of-pocket costs, you could be underinsured even if you have coverage through your job.

Americans with job-based health insurance saw their protection from higher out-of-pocket costs erode between 2004 and 2007, especially those who were sick and of modest means, according to a new study.

The majority of people with health insurance, about 160 million Americans, receive it through their jobs.

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If businesses didn't have to dump profits into health insurance... imagine how many more jobs there might be available?

I just want everyone to have health care, efficiently run or not.

And I do not feel it is appropriate for a person to go financially bankrupt because they needed health care and they don't work for the government or a large company that provides benefits.

I know a guy who is a self-employed plumber, he got cancer (God forbid... it could happen to anyone), he receives no pay and no benefits while he is off work, he mortgaged his house to pay for medical costs, he used his kids' college money to pay for medical costs, his job is gone. He died... his family has nothing.

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Full health benefits for one American - full health benefits for ALL Americans.

Just my opinion (based on what I observe).

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, ratified by most nations and according to the late Dr. John Humphrey, "invoked so often that it is now part of customary international law," states in article 25:

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

________________________________________________________________

Perhaps it will take some challenges in the courts to get your government to do something?

Universal health care bequeaths unlimited power to the government over your life. When you start talking Primary Care, there is nothing they cannot regulate on your body. With the EPA now being able to regulate CO2 as a pollutant, that you exhale, you are no longer a free individual. You are a source of pollution. With the government being granted the right to control how much and what you eat, how you exercise and live your life... you are government property. Be ready for the day they tell you, you have to die. That WILL happen eventually.

The path to totalitarianism is one of many steps. One step rarely seems worse than any other, but they ultimately lead you to your destruction. P-BO's plan is an express elevator to hell.

ps... what's he gonna pay for this with? Fairy sprinkles?

There has been much discussion in the news regarding how to pay for universal health care.

(I haven't seen any suggestions of fairy dust. )

I know I would be willing to pay an additional 1% of my gross pay to have everyone in the USA covered.

In the modern state, membership "fees" are collected mostly in the form of taxes. And those taxes should be going to providing the membership with the benefits that it expects.

On a related note, I think that those "membership" fees should be waived for those who go in harm's way to protect the state (ie: members of the military): after all, is the state not collecting its membership fees from them in other ways?

But every year his insurance premium costs rise another 10 or 20 percent, and England worries about the day when the fees will overwhelm him. After payroll and rent, health care is his largest business expense.

"A business down the road could have their labor rate $5 cheaper than us because that's how much it costs for us to provide health care," England said, referring to the hourly rates his business and competitors might offer customers.

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$5.00 an hour savings by using the business down the road.

Everyone wants the lowest prices right?

Well to provide lower prices, businesses shouldn't provide health insurance benefits to employees, right?

it works well in many European countries, if you are ill and visit your local doctor you pay nothing, if you are sent to the hospital and spend a week or a year you pay nothing. it is a right, just like being taught at school.

it makes me feel sad when i hear that Americans are given a bill after having been to the hospital, etc so what if someone can not afford the bill? will the hospital 'remove' what they have 'repaired' on the person's body? will they take his/her property or car from him/her?

really i do not know how the US goverment works upon this subject. let me tell you how it works in most European countries: First, when you get your first job you get a social security number, that number will be with you for the rest of your life. whilst you are working your boss must pay your social security through your number all months, it assures you the right to receive your pay if you are off work because of being ill or having an accident whilst working. also it assures your pension when retired at the age of 65.

Second, at the time you get your first job and get a social security number, you are also given a national health system card (you have to ask for it) it gives you the right to receive free medical care whether it is through your local doctor, hospitals or any other thing, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Third, of course children do not work, so they get the same free medical care through their fathers or mothers card.

some people criticise a national health system based on ignorance, they tend to say taxes increase. well it is not really true, at first sight it may appear that it is true, but it is not! all goverments increase taxes whether they have free medical care or not. at least they increase them according to the cost of living.

and even if a tax were to be increased just for medical care i would of course welcome it. no one will stop smoking their fags, filling their cars or enjoying a good glass of red wine just because it increases some cents!

Medicare is already a failing program; less money is being received than is going out this year. The entire SSA program will run out of "money" by 2037 and be totally reliant on taxed income; this will not cover 100% of the outflow needed. Government needs to be focused on these issues first, instead of creating new programs to make the problems even more complex.

I am uninsured but this is not society's problem, it is mine. I think if more people had that attitude this country would have less problems.

Get rid of all attorneys who are filing all these frivolous, unjustified lawsuits, abolish labor union (any voice out there??) . Then let the private entrepreneurs in for competitive services.

As of now, the govt, is one of the highest employer in this country, and it really kick us back in return. I love this country and very patriotic, but I know any type of govt.(in the U.S or anywhere else) is incapable of handling businesses.

Gosh... can you imagine that?

Maybe we had better not do what is best for ALL Americans, so that some private companies can protect their profits.

Saving the lives of the uninsured and under-insured might need to take a back seat so these companies can continue to make money?

I hope like hell we can get nationalized health insurance but geeeez - what a complete F*CK-UP this guy is.

Sad.

The USA was sooooo focused on ousting Bush that we may have jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

Please refrain from indicating to specific individuals how inferior their knowledge and news sources are.

This type of behavior only leads to verbal hostilities.

Many, many before you have declared that their 'information sources' are far superior to TV, print news, and cable networks. But very few people receive their news from any of those seriously outdated sources, we all have the internet.

Please debate the topic, based on your knowledge/opinions, and not based on the lack of knowledge of others here, just to avoid any 'interpersonal conflict' here.

Thanks.

For the government (local, county, state, federal) to simply maintain the current rate of spending for government retiree health insurance alone, tax rates MUST be raised.

One good reason for national health insurance is to rid government and industry of the burden for providing retiree health benefits.

All of that liability would go away.

Obama doesn't do much research or look at facts.

He seems to believe that if he thinks something is a good idea it will simply happen.

His own people are beginning to realize they are the scapegoats for his promised 'visions'.

At Current Rate, Giving Out $3,500 Or $4,500 Per Vehicle Would Burn Through $1 Billion Allocated In No Time.

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If Obama fails miserably while in the 'junk car business'... how can he manage health care?

"U.S. Mint...? This is Barack... remember yesterday when I asked you to print up a billion more dollars to cover extended unemployment benefits for people who are out of work? Well... make that $2 billion while you're at it, okay? I got in over my head with a half-baked junk cars business venture idea...."

In Canada, each province is responsible for administering its own health insurance, and some (not all) operate at least partially on a pay-roll deduction system. Some will say (rightly so) that this is just another form of tax, but it does serve to make it more transparent.

By strengthening the government employees union?

(You pay for their health insurance right now.... works for them!)

It is good 'theater' if you can just sit back and watch, entertaining.

As I keep saying, the government should have learned their lesson, you can't legislate morality or good health choices.

The thing I hate about these tax increases is that you cannot be certain that those specific dollars are going to that specific program.

I think we all can agree that insurance companies do have increased rates for those of us who are checking off that "Smoker" box on your insurance application. Obama should be going after that difference in premium that the insurers are collecting. Of course the insurance companies will have to raise premiums to offset the loss.

Does anyone remember when there was a company that just advertised Cancer insurance?

Well anyway......... Cancer still has some running to do in order to catch up with Heart Disease.

And if this plan is for every citizen, then that should include all government employees as well elected officials. Let's level this field.

http://www.redstate.com/index.php?tag=health-care/

4th article down about the WH wanting even casual conversation that oppose the health care plan to be reported to them.

"One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It's very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. . . . Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it." - Ronald Reagan

I've used the emergency room without insurance. Got a bill, but never paid it and never had a collection agency come after me either and it hasn't been reflected on my credit report.

But then maybe I've been spoiled, cuz I've always worked. One employer didn't offer insurance and others have. Depending on the cost of insurance is what determined if I enrolled. If it was too expensive or no insurance offered, I used the public health system.

I'm not for nationalized health care. I'm not in support of paying health care premiums to compensate for those who don't work, etc. Just my two cents.

Private hospitals can decline to treat someone. If they do not except medicare/medicaid, they can refuse anyone they wish.

There is the difference. Private vs Public.

Here is the other kicker... Each State sets the cost per bed that hospitals, medical staff and insurance companies have to live with. So they start with a cap on the cost that is reviewed annually. HMOs started as a way for the insurance companies to work within the state(s) cost caps.

So my view is we got to this place because state governments did this and insurance companies responded with that. Now the Feds want in???

I think the government should back off. Show us they can fix medicare and make that work.

But not some hastily concocted unread plan pushed through just for the hell of it.

Obama has a HUGE ego and he just wants to claim credit for everything & anything.

Don't just do it, Just do it RIGHT.

Some medical procedures are not covered by health care and require additional fees, such as medicals for driver's class licenses or a doctor's note explaining extended medical absences (which a nurse and not a doctor usually signs anyway). Also, I'm not sure if this is still common, but some clinics extra-billed and asked for an additional fee ($5 - $25) for each visit, but not all clinics did this and I don't much hear about this anymore. Mine doesn't, at least.

But for basic medical coverage, I never had to worry. My appendectomy when I was 21? Covered. My kneecap physiotherapy? Covered. All the medical examinations, lab tests, x-rays, medical procedures, stitches, referrals to specialists, hospital visits, tongue depressors, and so on through the years? Covered. My sister had a heart transplant-- I can't even guess what the final bill would have been for that, but it was covered, too, and she's alive because of it and nothing had to be mortgaged or sold or passed onto her kids as debts. (Unlike some American relatives of mine who were hit hard by unexpected medical expenses and prolonged treatments).

What I don't get about the discussion that I see happening in the States on this question are the references to fascism / Nazism and this weird dread of your government's involvement in such a scheme. You're more comfortable with it being run by million-dollar salaried executives answerable only to shareholders? You can unelect elected government officials but there's not much you can do about a CEO whose primary concern is keeping the shareholders and stockholders happy to guarantee he earns his performance bonuses. As a foreign citizen, it's always dangerous to express opinions about another country's issues (this is when Mingles civil wars escalate into world wars), but I don't think you have a government problem insomuch as a lobbyist and special interests problem. And what's with this reference to Nazis when talking about universal health care? You'll happily play punch-buggy over sightings of Adolf Hitler's Peoples's Car? You'll take pride (and rightly) in a moon landing project having origins in WWII's V-1 & V-2 rocket terror weapon campaigns against the British? But even an illusory reference to socialized medicine gets placard-waving crowds wailing and gnashing teeth in the streets? Seriously?

Instead of providing us with gov run health care, why don't they focus on fixing the social security system they messed up so badly?

I think the U.S. government can, and should at some point, provide a base-level form of health care for all, but I believe the ever present battles between republicans and democrats (acting like children) will prevent the USA from willing the health care war.

** I know a self-employed plumber who slowly died of cancer. He lost his business, his house, his life savings, and his dignity. His daughter will not be returning to college this fall (no money).

** I know man who worked for the State Department of Transportation who slowly died of cancer. All of his bills were paid, his income check arrived on time until his death. His wife and kids remain in the house. His daughter's college money is still in the savings account.

One gets government health care... one doesn't.

Right now I am proud to say I am neither republican or democrat.

But it's your system under discussion, not mine, I just offered what I hope is an explanation of how universal health care works in Alberta, pros and cons. I had an aunt in the States whose prolonged health problems proved a huge burden not only to her husband but ultimately to her adult children and a visit to an ER wouldn't or didn't fix her. My other aunt in the states got Alzheimer's and lingered for years but I guess her husband had better medical coverage.

Yes Bubba, people surely do have it paid if they can't afford it. Once they lose everything they own it becomes provided for them.

And those who work for the government don't lose any income or assets even while it happens.

Good topic. I have great health insurance because I can afford it. But I hate seeing peoples' families negatively affected by the costs for those who can't afford health insurance.

It was the plumber's own fault he lost everything and his family had to suffer as a result though.

He should have known better.

Teek, my brother in law that passed away last year was a self employed welder. He made very good money and did alright. He was diagnosed one day with cancer, he spend the next 3 months in the hospital undergoing major surgeries and treatments. He was released to go home and die when all those failed. He spent the next 2 months in his bed at home with a nurse that came by daily (He lived about 30 miles from the nearest town) until his death.

He was never denied care even though he had no insurance. He was treated at MD Anderson Hospital (one of the best in the world). He was able to obtain social security but it took a couple of months to go through. His wife is still paying for some of the costs. His LIFE insurance policy took care of much of it.

The point is, he was never denied care. His care was first class. I'm sure if they had to do it all over again, they would have purchased insurance. But that is moot

Why do we feel that the government should care for us? At what point should we start to assume some responsibilities?

A government administered health-care system does not however, mean that it need be "freebie" health care. If the system is set up as an insurance program, participants will be required to pay insurance premiums through pay-roll deductions or directly. A well-run insurance program will take those contributions and invest them in areas that generate a return, which can then be rolled back into the program.

I seldom go to the doctor or the ER for any reason. But I know that if I should need to do so, I'm covered. I also know that I'm not going to be presented with a whopper of a bill afterwards. I really don't mind that there are people out there with the same coverage that I have but don't pay into it because they are low-income or drawing social assistance. With today's economy, I could be one of those people next week.

Obama is going on vacation and he has asked to be left alone to enjoy some time with his family. As if this request will have any impact at all. Naive.

(Just another example of how distorted his views are in his 'perfect' world.)

Even though it has NOTHING even remotely to do with healthcare, watch the democrats rally around his passing as some sort of 'cause' for healthcare reform.

Watch it happen, and realize how utterly ridiculous it is.

I don't approve of having monkeys in a zoo flipping coins to see what we keep and what we change though.

Kind of funny how Obama needed to get the 'stimulus' bill rushed through, and now he wants to rush the healthcare reform through... rush, rush, rush...

But Obama says ending the wars (a campaign promise) takes time...?

(What a lying pathetic motherfvcker... sad thing is, his followers believe his bullshit. )

WASHINGTON (AP) - A top senator is calling for fines of up to $3,800 on families who fail to get medical insurance after a health care overhaul goes into effect.

The plan from Democratic Sen. Max Baucus of Montana would make health insurance mandatory, just like auto coverage. It would provide tax credits to help cover the cost for people making up to three times the federal poverty level. That's about $66,000 for a family of four, and $32,000 for an individual.

But those who still don't sign up would face hefty fines, starting at $750 a year for individuals and $1,500 for families. The maximum penalty on individuals would be $950.

Baucus is hoping his plan can win bipartisan support.

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Does he really think this will get bipartisan support, or is it the drugs talking?

Just what we feared most about health care.....more government control of our lives!!!

"Liberals never, ever drop a heinous idea; they just change the name. 'Abortion' becomes 'choice,' 'communist' becomes 'progressive,' 'communist dictatorship' becomes 'people's democratic republic' and 'Nikita Khrushchev' becomes 'Barack Obama.' It doesn't matter if liberals start calling national health care a 'chocolate chip puppy' or 'ice cream sunset' -- if the government is subsidizing it, then the government calls the shots. And the moment the government gets its hands on the controls, it will be establishing death panels, forcing taxpayers to pay for abortions and illegal aliens, rationing care and then demanding yet more government control when partial government control creates a mess. Which happens to be exactly what liberals are doing right now." --columnist Ann Coulter

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/57859-boehner-gop-leaders-havent-met-obama-for-health-talks-since-april

Previously this wasn't public knowledge (only the 'insiders' knew it).

There is a possibility that democrats are NOT even going to support Obama's retarded plan.

Maybe they'll actually put some foresight and thought into a good plan.

(I'm of the opinion that Obama's ego may have swelled to cause him to become mentally retarded.)

Obama: emerging as a 100% complete fvcking fool, a donkey's ass.

When peoples' unemployment benefits run out there's gonna be trouble paying for anything, lol.

Obama doesn't seem to see that on the horizon.

On topic now. Recent headlines show that there is a huge problem with fraud in the health care undustry. Just a few details showing the size of the issue are in the links below. I'm wondering if perhaps these fraud schemes don't make a revamped government run system (or at least one subject to government funding and oversight) somewhat more attractive? Certainly some changes are called for?

http://www.nationalpost.com/life/health/story.html?id=eba0fbb5-0d83-42e4-af13-0ee7fd98cc00

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/financial/fcs_report2006/financial_crime_2006.htm#Health

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/hlthcarefraud.html

Good points, Ron. I have said from the start that I DO believe health care reform is necessary, I just don't think Obama and his crew of dimwits are the ones to initiate the reform, and, I truly think there are more pressing issues facing our nation.

As for your insults, I can honestly say that they mean nothing to tck and they contribute nothing to this discussion.

Go away.

He says people have no clue at all how much their employers pay for their health insurance.

He says when someone loses their job, they come to him and say they want to start paying for their own health insurance.

He says people 'estimate' it will be around $200.00 per month.

People are shocked to find out their monthly health insurance bill is around $500.00 for a single person and $800.00 for a family.

But the employer has always paid for it, so no one knew the actual costs.

As a result of this be prepared for employers to pass more of the costs on to the employees, and expect much more notification of what the costs actually are.

But, the cost is prohibitive for sure. I rarely go to a doctor/hospital etc. Even when in the service I didn't and it was free. I did see another type of person that went every time they sneezed and would bitch about the treatment.......lol. That's what you're going to see alot of should we get some blanket coverage system. I don't want to see health care become another "entitlement" to the population of the US. We have enough of that right now.......

There are very few reasons for some to NOT use their health insurance benefits for every ailment.

Lots of changes needed, lots of changes coming. Obama will fvck it up though, lol.

Nancy Pelosi is funny as hell, California is basically in the toilet circling the bowl, and she is off on missions of her own, lol. Obama is ignoring two wars, screwing up the economy, ignoring job creation, hosting concerts at the white house, and lobbying for health care for all (no matter the cost).

I foresee a RAPID 'four and out' for this presidential poser & pretender.

Next year's health insurance prices are based on this year's health insurance expenses.

That's why businesses continually keep seeing annual increases.

It is incredible that people don't understand the way insurance works.

And this is exactly why businesses simply cannot provide 100% coverage anymore.

There has to be a 'co-pay' otherwise the employees simply feel everything is paid for.

(gtr - no one said anyone was going to get a refund, lol. Do you get a refund if you don't wreck your car? No, if you don't wreck your car you don't get an increase on your premium next year. You've opened my eyes to how some people think gtr. I really, truly didn't believe anyone was naive enough to think that since the health benefits are paid for by the employer it would be better to use them than not, as if they go to waste unused. It baffles me, but I guess some people really do think like that.)

Thanks.

It's like when the Korean automakers were offering free oil changes for 3 years. If you didn't use them and your engine blew within the warranty period, they could use that as grounds for denying warranty service. No, I have never bought such a car, but I do know that no business ever offers anything like that unless they stand to gain (or prevent a loss) by doing so.

As for a health insurance policy? If you get a paper containing any "suggested" doctor visits, take them, because they are not just suggested, they are recommended.

Scientist, Its worse than horrible, because a zombie has no will of his own. You see them some times, walking around blindly with dead eyes, following orders, not knowing what they do, not caring.

Bob Hope: You mean, like Democrats?

Bob Hope, a man way ahead of his time.

This is so highly encouraged that nearly everyone has a deductible on their health insurance plan now.

Many democrat leaders have stated that they will vote in favor of it.

However some democrat leaders said they have to read it first.

(Reading it first appears to be a waste of time for some, they're ready to vote for any damn thing, lol. )

Nope, but don't wonder why the same dolts don't have jobs working for the corporations any longer, lol.

While discussing the upcoming Universal Health Care Program with my sister-in-law the other day, I think we have found the solution.

I am sure you have heard the ideas that if you're a senior you need to suck it up and give up the idea that you need any health care. A new hip? Unheard of. We simply can't afford to take care of you anymore. You don't need any medications for your high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, etc. Lets take care of the young people. After all, they will be ruling the world very soon.

So here is the solution.

1) When you turn 70, you get a gun and 6 bullets.

You are allowed to shoot 3 senators and 3 representatives.

Of course, you will be sent to prison where you will get:

3 meals a day, a roof over your head and all the health care you need!!!

New teeth, great!!! Need glasses, no problem. New hip, knee, kidney, lung, heart?

Well bring it on. And who will be paying for all of this.

Why, the same government that just told you that you are too old for health care.

And, since you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income tax.

It looks like that even with the democratic majority and all of Obama's presidential efforts the current government leadership team is going to fvck up any chances of universal healthcare, mostly due to in-fighting between their own people.

Squabbling over the 'public option' and abortion coverage will prevent the bill from fruition.

How stupid is that, lol...?

I mean... what the FVCK does abortion have to do with health care?

Should they argue about adding a liposuction clause too, lol...?

Fools, lol

Why not? It's a free country. A person can work wherever they want. If a person wants health care bad enough they will get it. They just have to work hard.

As for health care in general, Don't have a health care plan, buy stock in it. A far better use of your money and a much more viable plan. A younger couple putting the 5000 a year into health car stock will have a substantial sum in 20 years. The designer drug business is booming and now the baby boomers are hitting that age where there going to spend some serious time on repair and maintenance. Cha-ching! Ride the wave of old people to prosperity!

"A younger couple putting the 5000 a year into health car stock will have a substantial sum in 20 years."

Yup, it is as simple as that, a 'sure thing'...

We're all geniuses!

My first year playing in the market with a stock trad able IRA 22% on my money.

I look forward to my next.

You do have to actually WORK at it. Just do your homework. I'm no freakin genius. If I can do it so can anyone else. My neighbor has been for 25 years. He's set but he continues to work at it. You certainly don't want to let a broker do it.

Just do your homework... anyone who ever lost money was just stupid, right?

Gosh... why doesn't the government just invest our money in the stock market and we'll all have free health care!

Now... a day later it seems the democrats might be pulling together.

Time will tell... my forecast is that they screw it up and no find cohesion among themselves.

And Joe Wilson has a GREAT point, make it mandatory for congress to use the new healthcare.

The majority yes. I enjoy that fact.

Human nature can be relied upon.

Ask any marketing specialist with a behavioral science degree.

"Gosh... why doesn't the government just invest our money in the stock market and we'll all have free health care!"

There is no money in that. They're not interested in wiping out and or regulating the health care industry.

The people in government are fare too busy investing oh so wisely in bail outs.

What interest are we receiving there?

Banks leverage 1-2% laons from the government at 100 or 1000 to one and if the loans go bad the government "we the people" insure them.

The proffit is there. We let them take it. They pay us back by us bailing them out.

Then have us believing it was the right or only thing to be done.

And the stock market in comparrison seems risky to you?

If I could get our government to give me a loan right now at say 3% and the promise of a bailout it things go bad....what a deal!

This is of course only for the privileged.

The delusion that a "free market" actually exists is just that.

An illusion. We are allowed a certain degree. The more money you have the more freedom "power" you gain. A true free market would not/ is not tolerated by good business men.

Money is only truly lost when a company goes bankrupt. If you don't have the stomach for the ups and downs, which most people don't, then stay out.

Our government is a tool for those who make money. It will never as an institution make money....It is the perpetual Santa Claus, We are the endless well.

"And Joe Wilson has a GREAT point, make it mandatory for congress to use the new healthcare."

Thumbs up!

In fact all government employees including the president.

command and control government?

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583

I pay a lot of taxes

I have universal health care

80 percent of my children's college fees are covered by the tax payers

Call me a fuking socialist. pffftttt

Jess kiddin

Unfortunately, this health care bill before us now is a bit like bobbing for apples in an outhouse; the harder you look, the more waste you find!

I am all for a government run healthcare system, not a politically centered one. Of the people, by the people... However, I see so many of these people on Medicare and/or Medicaid go see a doctor for whatever ($$ for office visits, labs, etc) then go pick up a prescription for whatever (you want HOW MUCH? for HOW MANY?) Now they get home and either "forget" to take the medicine and can't figure out why they are no better. Or by the time they get home, they know better than the doctor they just saw and refuse to take the medical advice, hence wasting the time and money for the visit. Then probably go to the emergency room and rack up another bill for medical advice they won't follow. After seeing such waste in the system, I feel people who are repeat offenders for such bills should then pay out of pocket or be declined treatment in emergency rooms, blacklisted if you will. The overpricing of medications, tests, treatments, and bureaucratic bullshit is what is costing this country the most. Did you know, in most states, when you are in the hospital, if a doctor writes for you to be able to take your own tylenol(and some other medications) from home, you can. Did you know, ONE 500mg tylenol from the hospital will cost the system $8 or higher?

Take the "free" pen at the doctor's office, you're paying for it...

As The Health Care Takeover Gets Closer To A VoteBe Afraid, Be Very Afraid

Washington, Nov 6 -

Washington, D.C. Alaskan Congressman Don Young released the following statement today, as the House gets closer and closer to a vote on Speaker Pelosis government takeover of health care:

Thousands gathered on the National Mall yesterday to let their voice be heard, said Rep. Young. The taxpayers of America are scared; they are scared that their liberties are being stomped on and they are scared of the government intrusion in their lives. They have every right to be! Speaker Pelosis bill puts a huge tax burden on working families and small businesses, it cuts Medicare, it takes Alaskas neediest kids off Denali KidCare over the next few years and gives them inferior coverage under Medicaid, and it places unfunded mandates on statesand thats just the beginning. The three major things that need to be included in a successful health care bill are accessibility, portability, and affordability and this bill has none of that. This bill is composed of ego and partisanship, and while that may help the Speaker in her future endeavors, it does nothing to help Alaskans and nothing to help our country.

H.R. 3962:

1. RAISES TAXES ON MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES. Speaker Pelosis health care bill imposes a range of tax increases on families with income below $250,000. Tax increases on middle class families include: an individual mandate tax of up to 2.5 percent of income for taxpayers earning as little as $9,350; repeal of a tax break on medicine purchased with funds from an HSA (health savings account); limits to tax relief through FSAs (flexible spending accounts); taxes on medical devices that will inevitably be passed on to consumers; and a new tax on all insurance policies.

2. MASSIVE CUTS TO MEDICARE BENEFITS FOR SENIORS. Despite grave warnings from CBO, FactCheck.org, and the independent Lewin Group that cuts to Medicare of the magnitude included in Speaker Pelosis bill would have a negative impact on seniors benefits and choices, Speaker Pelosis health care bill stays the course and cuts Medicare by hundreds of billions of dollars.

3. NO PROTECTIONS FOR SMALL BUSINESSES. Speaker Pelosis health care bill claims to exempt small businesses from the steep eight percent pay or play employer mandate. Using Census data compiled by the Small Business Administration, this so-called exemption hammers small employers with only, on average, 17 or more employees to new taxes and mandates. The outfits affected employ 70 percent of all small business employees, or 42.3 million workers. Adding to the assault on small businesses, the bill does not index the small business exemption amounts, meaning more and more small businesses will be ensnared by this job-killing employer mandate each year.

4. INCREASES THE COST OF HEALTH INSURANCE. Imposing a new $2 billion tax on insurance policies will be passed on to patients in the form of higher premiums. Changes to the Medicare Part D prescription drug benefit will, according to estimates by CBO, will raise Medicare Part B premiums by $25 billion and Part D premiums by 20 percent. And imposing an unfunded mandate on the states to pay for the bills Medicaid expansion will shift the burden of this expansion on state taxpayers who may experience tax increases to cover the cost.

5. USES GIMMICKS TO HIDE BUDGET-BUSTING COST, PILES UP DEBT ON FUTURE GENERATIONS. Speaker Pelosis health care bill claims to be deficit neutral, but uses budget gimmickry to hide its massive total cost. Working families across America know they cannot simply decide that a bill they get in the mail doesnt exist, but thats exactly what congressional Democrats are doing. In order to meet the Presidents target spending total of $900 billion, Democrats have simply swept costly provisions under the rug, including the $245 billion doc fix.

6. IMPOSES JOB-KILLING EMPLOYER MANDATES. Additional taxes on employers and new government mandates that dictate acceptable insurance will place new and crushing burdens on employers. These are burdens that will ultimately fall squarely on the backs of workers in the form of reduced wages, fewer hours or lost employment.

7. TILTS THE PLAYING FIELD IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT-RUN INSURANCE COMPANY. Speaker Pelosis health care bill provides billions in start-up funding for the government-run plan, and while it requires the plan to repay the money over time it does not require the plan to pay interest on this loan. This interest-free, taxpayer-subsidized loan is potentially worth millions of dollars and tilts the playing field in favor of the government-run plan.

8. THREATENS CASH-STRAPPED STATES WITH UNFUNDED MANDATES. Speaker Pelosis health care bill swells the number of Americans on the government rolls by expanding Medicaid eligibility. Medicaid is financed through a federal-state partnership, but the bill dumps nearly ten percent of the mandated expansion included in the bill onto the states. States, already struggling with fiscal constraints, would be left on the hook for billions of dollars due to this unfunded mandate.

9. CREATES A NEW MONSTROSITY IN THE TAX CODE. Starting in 2011, Speaker Pelosis health care bill imposes a 5.4 percent tax on adjusted gross income above $500,000 for individuals and $1 million for married couples. Yet, the dollar amounts for which the tax kicks in are not indexed for inflation.

10. MISSES AN OPPORTUNITY TO CURTAIL JUNK LAWSUITS. Speaker Pelosis health care bill misses a critical opportunity to rein in junk lawsuits and costly defensive medicine. The bill includes only a voluntary grant program to deal with the medical liability crisis instead of including real reform, which would produce tens of billions of dollars in savings, improve efficiency in our health care system and reduce costs for patients and providers.

I usually don't pass along these "add your name" lists that appear in my email, but this one is too important..

This one has been circulating for months. Please, keep it going!

To show your SUPPORT for Obama's health care reform, please go the end of the list and add your name to the rapidly growing list below and send it on to your entire e-mail list.

1. Nancy Pelosi

2.

3.

4.

Following is the article from Medscape Nurse News:

November 7, 2009 ( UPDATED November 8, 2009 ) In the face of near-unanimous Republican opposition and a last-ditch effort to change the bill, the US House of Representatives late Saturday night voted 220 to 215 in favor of legislation to overhaul the nation's healthcare system. Thirty-nine of the body's 258 Democratic members many from conservative districts in the South joined their GOP House colleagues in opposing the measure, a $1.1 trillion compromise bill that has aroused deep passions on both sides of the aisle, as well as beyond the halls of Congress.

In a statement issued from Camp David shortly after the vote, President Barack Obama, who had visited House Democrats earlier in the day, said, "Tonight, in an historic vote, the House of Representatives passed a bill that would finally make real the promise of quality, affordable health care for the American people."

For her part, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said she was "proud" of House members who stood steadfast against overwhelming GOP opposition. "When we can't find common ground, we have to stand our ground," she said at a news briefing following passage of the legislation, which garnered just one Republican vote, that of Anh "Joseph" Cao (R-LA).

But House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-OH), whose GOP substitute plan went down to defeat shortly before the historic vote, vowed to continue the fight. "I came here to renew the American Dream, so my kids and their kids have the same opportunities I had. I came here to fight big-government monstrosities like this bill that dim the light of freedom and diminish opportunity for future generations. Our plan will lower premiums by up to 10%, making health care more affordable for families and small businesses. That's what the American people want, and that's what Republicans will continue to fight for."

Action now turns to the Senate, where leaders are working to merge bills from that body's Health Committee and Finance Committee. Like the House-passed bill, the Senate Health Committee's proposal includes a public-plan option, a new government insurance plan that would compete with private plans in the marketplace and be authorized to negotiate rates with physicians and hospitals. The Finance Committee proposal, in contrast, would create state-level private, nonprofit, consumer-run insurance cooperatives, which liberals in the Senate, including West Virginia Democrat Jay Rockefeller, say are fatally flawed.

But to overcome a 60-vote hurdle the number of votes Democrats would need to cut off a GOP filibuster that some conservative Democrats have threatened to join Senate Democrats who favor the public-plan option may have no choice but to compromise to get any sort of reform legislation through their chamber.

If that happens, and it's still a big if, the next battleground would be the conference committee, where negotiators of both chambers must forge a single piece of legislation acceptable to both sides and, of course, to the President.

Spart, I doubt those who have read it understand the implications and impact it will truely have on the American people. Look at the system they have for the Veterans already. Those who have had to deal with a VA hospital knows, this is not going to be pretty.

Anyone that thinks this won't cost us dearly better take another look.......

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer 26 mins ago.

WASHINGTON The glow from a health care triumph faded quickly for President Barack Obama on Sunday as Democrats realized the bill they fought so hard to pass in the House has nowhere to go in the Senate.

Speaking from the Rose Garden about 14 hours after the late Saturday vote, Obama urged senators to be like runners on a relay team and "take the baton and bring this effort to the finish line on behalf of the American people."

The problem is that the Senate won't run with it. The government health insurance plan included in the House bill is unacceptable to a few Democratic moderates who hold the balance of power in the Senate.

If a government plan is part of the deal, "as a matter of conscience, I will not allow this bill to come to a final vote," said Sen. Joe Lieberman, the Connecticut independent whose vote Democrats need to overcome GOP filibusters.

"The House bill is dead on arrival in the Senate," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said dismissively.

Democrats did not line up to challenge him. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has yet to schedule floor debate and hinted last week that senators may not be able to finish health care this year.

- - - - - - - - - -

Obama is a short-sighted dumbass searching for anything to claim as 'progress' under his administration.

There appears to still be some hope of government 'of the people for the people'.

The Senate may not have as many Obama democrat asslickers (like Nancy Pelosi).

Our social security system should be another shining example of how well we run things like is. Everyone will come to depend on it and it will self destruct.

Nelson Won't Vote for Health Care Bill That Looks Like the House Version.

By JONATHAN KARL, Nov. 11, 2009

In a warning sign for the White House, Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska tells ABC News that he'll vote to block any health care bill that looks like the bill passed by the House.

"Well, first of all, it has more than a robust public option, it's got a totally government-run plan, the costs are extraordinary associated with it, it increases taxes in a way that will not pass in the Senate and I could go on and on and on," Nelson said in an interview that is part of ABC News' Subway Series with Jonathan Karl.

"Faced with a decision about whether or not to move a bill that is bad, I won't vote to move it," he added. "For sure."

The $1.1 trillion price tag on the House bill, Nelson said, is "absolutely" too high.

Nelson's vote is critical to getting a bill passed because Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid needs 60 votes before the Senate can even begin debating the bill. With all 40 Republicans currently opposed to it, Reid needs the votes of all 60 Democrats.

- - - - - - - - -

Obama will have to waste more time with his ridiculous bill.

What a stupid dumb braindead fvckwad.

Frankly, metaphorically, We are being strung up and gutted by money interests like the complacent bloated mindless pig we have become. Led right to slaughter. Our innards being distributed around the globe. The choice cuts are reserved. The pig that laid the golden pork chop.

A national health care plan will never fly at this juncture. Obama was foolish for promising it.

Important video to see before it is removed..............

CHECK THIS OUT!

Ok,this is worth every MINUTE (ONLY 4) to watch this! THIS HITS IT OUT

OF THE BALL PARK ! AND IT ONLY has HAD 24,048 views

It was taken inside Congress with a Congressman. YOU HAVE TO WATCH

THIS and YOU MUST PASS THIS ON!!!

THIS IS IMPERATIVE EVERYONE SEE THIS!! IT WAS TAKEN OFF THE VIDEO

TAPES OF THE FLOOR OF OUR NATIONAL LEGISLATURE. PLEASE SEND THIS OUT TO

EVERYONE!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc

Explain that logic, Muchaha.

(I think Muchaha knows a fortune teller so he knows the future. )

Yes, that is what questions are for. It is a buyer be ware world after all.

The majority gets what they vote for. the rest of us have to live with it unless we want war.

Currently this country is so spun up about health care. The talking heads on TV make it sound like the poor have no health care. Nothing could be further from the truth. NOBODY can be denied treatment in the USA. A hospital can not turn somebody away if they need care. Trust me, in 12 years as an EMT in Houston, I've seen people in the Emergency Room (after hours) with a yeast infection.

The point is that the poor are provided with free health care. Not everyone in this country has insurance but it is obtainable. If the government must get their hands in health care, they should just look for ways to provide aid to people, not socialize the system.

my .02

Now I know.... it was the voters' fault.

The ignorant bastards voting should have known Clinton was going to do that, lol.

"but the government does have a role to play especially in sensitive areas that can't be left to the whims of the market forces viz: National security and health care."

That statement says you believe the government can "fix" what you see as broken. After working in several hospitals in both admissions and billing and currently billing and doing collections for doctors, I can tell you that there are several programs that we get people into to help disperse cost including having the doctors discount or donate their services AFTER the service has been provided. The NH network helps 1000's of people get back on their feet when the times are tough. Health and Human Services helps too. Then for people that can pay $50 or more a month, we set up payment programs. No one is denied care. The financial aspect comes up after services.

The claims that hospitals and doctors are taking peoples homes, is no different than taxing them out of their homes as our current Administration is set to do. Currently, the Health Care reform bill is set up to penalize all businesses no matter how small. For little ones like mine, lack of health insurance would place myself (self employed) having to pay a penalty of $25K and/or 1 to 5 years in jail. The IRS will have the power to take EVERYTHING you own in order to pay your fine. Currently, you can buy private plans, but that option will be phased out. That is why last week and the weeks to come, several of us real little guys are looking at doing Co-ops. We want to be set to either close our doors or protect what we have worked for. We are looking at a 21% increase in property taxes in this state. Then increase SS taxes, health care costs, and increased federal taxes.

What scares me is that families could be split up because one or both parents are incarcerated. Then there is the burden on the states to provide welfare for all those that lose everything between the increase taxes and fines will be horrendous. Property taxes will soar creating a black hole that will suck the life blood out of everything and everyone.

see what happens when you hang out with doctors, politicians, tax accountants and lawyers? They scare the hell out of you. I willing admit to being scared. People are talking and the talk is, in it's self, frightening.

So I have meetings tonight and Monday. It feels like survival training as we try to cope with every level (local, state and federal) government *fixes*.

Sorry for this long post. Muchaha, your posts simply triggered everything that has been and will continue to be on my mind as things keep changing and so what plans were originally decided on are now obsolete and new plans have to be developed.

The whole idea of FORCING businesses to provide health insurance KILLS jobs and is STUPID.

The whole idea of paying for someone's time in jail because they don't have health insurance is STUPID.

(And if the gov't demands that everyone have health insurance, why not have the gov't leaders have to use THE SAME POLICY they force everyone else to use? What makes their health superior to yours and mine?)

On the point about blaming voters, I do not put the blame squarely on them, however, my opinion is that they are not without fault. In a democracy, people actually run the government, politicians are elected to represent them. A disciplined electorate makes sure that the right group of people should represent them. Much like in a private estate where an owner makes poor choices of people who manage his business, a manager will be blamed for screwing up. On the other hand the people who hired him should do better in recruiting another.

100% hogwash in my opinion.

Please explain how Clinton having sex with an intern in the Oval Office is any fault of the voters, just for example.

As for voters being to blame for the state of our nation.... its true... not because of what we have done but for what we have not done... We have not exercised our rights to keep tabs on our government and all the legislation in the works.... We have spent decades upon decades expecting our politicians to look out for our best interests when all they care about is their own. We have been paying the price for zero-sum legislation that has a few decent headlines for show with no real substance to back it up...... except, of course for the billions of tax dollars squandered away by it in earmarks. In fact, the only legislation these days that is not zero-sum happens to be that which finds a way to penalize us for something. Gotta love healthcare reform..... either contribute to the problem or go to jail....... fvck it, at least in jail id get health coverage for free.

*Both of you gentlemen(StarFire58 and tck_beachbum )*

Senate won't rush health bill: top Republican.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate will not rush consideration of healthcare reform legislation sought by President Barack Obama, and lawmakers can expect a number of amendments, the chamber's top Republican said on Sunday.

"This will be on the floor for quite a long time," Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell told "Fox News Sunday" ahead of possible action this week on a procedural vote to bring the legislation up for debate on the Senate floor.

McConnell would not elaborate on a time frame for consideration or say whether the measure to reform the $2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare system could clear the chamber by the end of the year as President Barack Obama has said he hopes.

"There will be a lot of amendments over a lot of weeks. I mean, the Senate is not the House. You saw in the House three votes and it was over in one day," McConnell said.

- - - - - - - - - -

Basically what McConnell is saying is that the House members are a bunch of ass-sucking retards.

And that the Senate members are going to do what is right, NOT what impresses each other.

I think Jesse Jackson is an outright racist, and an embarrassment to his own race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc